WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.840 So, this is sort of hot off the press. 00:00:04.140 --> 00:00:10.600 We give a draft to QCDA on Monday, so if we're looking a bit tired, a bit stressed, that's 00:00:10.600 --> 00:00:10.960 why. 00:00:13.340 --> 00:00:17.680 Okay, so I took a particular interest, well there's quite a lot of the team who took a 00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:25.760 particular interest in the students, and we did so for particular reasons. 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:31.620 that's just to summarize again 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:33.780 the raft of reforms that are going on 00:00:33.780 --> 00:00:35.400 the ones that we're waiting for 00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:37.460 as well 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:40.000 to come maybe in the white paper 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.800 in November 00:00:42.800 --> 00:00:45.840 so there's a lot happening 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:48.540 and students are having to get on 00:00:48.540 --> 00:00:50.680 in their day to day lives 00:00:50.680 --> 00:00:52.120 their day to day activities 00:00:52.120 --> 00:00:53.920 they're wanting to achieve 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:55.280 they're wanting to do well 00:00:55.280 --> 00:01:00.780 and they're all part of the maelstrom that's happening. 00:01:04.520 --> 00:01:16.427 In the documentation and the policy documentation that was sort of the framework that we had to work with there was a definite if small 00:01:17.507 --> 00:01:23.167 attempt to make sure that the student voice got heard, 00:01:24.087 --> 00:01:26.947 both in the entitlement of 14 to 19 00:01:26.947 --> 00:01:30.227 and the implementation of reforms. 00:01:31.167 --> 00:01:34.627 So policy documents were talking about the student voice. 00:01:34.627 --> 00:01:38.587 they mention specifically as this quote shows 00:01:38.587 --> 00:01:43.167 that there's no group more important to talk to 00:01:43.167 --> 00:01:47.867 to consult with, to understand what's going on 00:01:47.867 --> 00:01:49.287 than the students themselves 00:01:49.287 --> 00:01:54.607 and part of what was the drive 00:01:54.607 --> 00:01:59.507 the policy drive was to make consortia partnerships 00:01:59.507 --> 00:02:03.547 be much more up front about consulting 00:02:03.547 --> 00:02:06.727 with students and young people. 00:02:09.547 --> 00:02:16.287 However, it was two paragraphs in that document. 00:02:17.047 --> 00:02:20.567 It was presented as good practice to do it. 00:02:22.023 --> 00:02:26.963 but with no elaboration anywhere about how you might do it, 00:02:27.043 --> 00:02:28.843 what that good practice might look like. 00:02:29.663 --> 00:02:32.403 And it's talking about the student voice. 00:02:33.003 --> 00:02:38.783 It is never articulated as actually it's the government's legal obligation 00:02:38.783 --> 00:02:41.203 to consult children and young people 00:02:41.203 --> 00:02:44.483 under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. 00:02:45.223 --> 00:02:49.783 So it's never positioned as a legal obligation, 00:02:49.783 --> 00:02:53.143 but it's always presented as good practice. 00:02:53.323 --> 00:02:55.623 And I'm not arguing that it's not good practice 00:02:55.623 --> 00:03:00.783 but it's almost saying that you have to do it. 00:03:01.243 --> 00:03:02.383 Legally you have to do it. 00:03:02.643 --> 00:03:03.703 So why not do it? 00:03:03.783 --> 00:03:07.763 Why not try and engage young people in meaningful ways? 00:03:09.783 --> 00:03:15.543 So we as researchers in the CREST team 00:03:15.543 --> 00:03:42.730 were very taken with involving students as key stakeholders So they weren less they were one of many key stakeholders that we would engage with And this was partly to suggest that 00:03:42.730 --> 00:03:48.330 a lot of the literature around consultation and participation 00:03:48.330 --> 00:03:53.170 is actually saying that it can end up being tokenistic. 00:03:53.170 --> 00:04:01.750 If you just consult, then sometimes, as Cook says, it becomes comments, compliments, and complaints. 00:04:03.110 --> 00:04:07.670 And sometimes the consultation of young people is just that. 00:04:08.170 --> 00:04:16.890 People decide they don't want to do it because it just becomes that more young people will be complaining about what's not happening. 00:04:16.890 --> 00:04:21.890 But we decided to take a sort of methodological stance 00:04:21.890 --> 00:04:26.890 that would say the policy is saying that you should seek 00:04:26.890 --> 00:04:28.890 young people's views in the implementation 00:04:28.890 --> 00:04:31.890 of the 14 to 19 reform. 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:33.890 So we're going to do that. 00:04:33.890 --> 00:04:36.890 We're going to seek their views. 00:04:36.890 --> 00:04:41.890 However, policy doesn't really tell us how to do this, 00:04:41.890 --> 00:04:43.950 but research from the government, 00:04:44.046 --> 00:04:50.666 consultation, participation and children's rights would say that if you support them 00:04:50.666 --> 00:04:58.726 in forming a view, they can give their view with meaning. So we wanted to support them 00:04:58.726 --> 00:05:05.706 to give a view about the 14 to 19 reforms. And that might have meant that they didn't 00:05:05.706 --> 00:05:11.246 actually know about the whole raft of reforms that was going on, but that we would engage 00:05:11.246 --> 00:05:14.946 with them and discuss with them the sorts of things that were going on 00:05:14.946 --> 00:05:17.926 to elicit their views on this. 00:05:19.906 --> 00:05:23.126 And then thirdly, it was really just to 00:05:23.126 --> 00:05:26.826 consult them about the things that were important to them 00:05:26.826 --> 00:05:31.026 in schooling. What were the things that were most important to them 00:05:31.026 --> 00:05:35.246 and also were they consulted by their 00:05:35.246 --> 00:05:38.646 institutions? So that's sort of the framework 00:05:38.646 --> 00:06:03.893 in which the research was done So we asked them about their schooling learning engagement their aspirations but we also wanted to gauge the level to which they were actually consulted in their institutions 00:06:07.193 --> 00:06:16.173 And they told us that, yes, they were consulted, and that was very positive. It seemed that 00:06:16.173 --> 00:06:22.973 the movement around consultation with young people was playing out in practice in schools 00:06:22.973 --> 00:06:30.393 and that the ways in which they were being consulted were sort of the things that you 00:06:30.393 --> 00:06:35.953 probably would expect. There were student councils, there were student groups. One very 00:06:35.953 --> 00:06:43.493 interesting example was one centre had a teacher assigned to six students and they acted like 00:06:43.493 --> 00:06:48.733 an ongoing little consultative group in which to talk to things. And as they said, students 00:06:48.733 --> 00:06:57.073 were saying, we could force, you know, we can move our views up the line. But often there 00:06:57.073 --> 00:07:05.753 was a sense that sometimes students felt that the consultation was tokenistic, that they're 00:07:05.753 --> 00:07:05.973 not really listening to us. 00:07:06.070 --> 00:07:07.849 sort of something that they have to do, 00:07:08.269 --> 00:07:10.370 and they have to say that we've had our say, 00:07:10.709 --> 00:07:12.010 but they're not really listening. 00:07:15.969 --> 00:07:18.490 The other thing that was concern of them 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:21.349 was about what happens to our feedback. 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:26.310 What happens when we tell them what we want 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:27.850 or if they've consult us? 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:30.570 We're not always sure about what happens 00:07:30.570 --> 00:07:32.250 and how they use our information. 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:37.670 and this again is coming out of work around children's rights 00:07:37.670 --> 00:07:41.570 that actually if you consult and you consult in a meaningful way 00:07:41.570 --> 00:07:45.409 you have to show almost the feedback loop 00:07:45.409 --> 00:07:49.450 you have to show the ways in which views have been taken on board 00:07:49.450 --> 00:07:50.649 and listened to 00:07:50.649 --> 00:07:54.610 it's not that their views are better than anybody else's 00:07:54.610 --> 00:07:58.010 but just that they have been listened to in some way 00:07:58.010 --> 00:07:59.750 and that decisions have been made 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:03.230 and on what basis those decisions are made. 00:08:05.209 --> 00:08:07.850 So the students are actually saying 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:11.930 there are areas where it makes a difference. 00:08:13.230 --> 00:08:22.636 Consultation was very popular and also that they had suggested that there were lots of areas in their physical and social environment 00:08:22.636 --> 00:08:24.736 that they felt good about themselves 00:08:24.736 --> 00:08:26.236 that they had helped change. 00:08:27.096 --> 00:08:28.696 And it might seem simplistic, 00:08:28.936 --> 00:08:30.396 but it is things about menus, 00:08:30.896 --> 00:08:33.356 uniforms, physical spaces, 00:08:34.076 --> 00:08:36.156 all extremely important to them. 00:08:36.856 --> 00:08:39.396 And they felt that they had made a difference 00:08:39.396 --> 00:08:41.436 and it made them feel good about themselves, 00:08:41.436 --> 00:08:44.216 It made them feel good about their institutions. 00:08:44.636 --> 00:08:48.276 There were nicer places in which to learn. 00:08:49.716 --> 00:08:54.856 And they thought that that was very positive and spoke to us about that. 00:08:57.156 --> 00:09:07.116 But there were some areas where, and I think that, again, that this was coming out of some work that I've been doing with a colleague of mine, Laura Lundy in Belfast, 00:09:07.116 --> 00:09:12.916 where there are definite limitations and boundaries to consultation. 00:09:13.856 --> 00:09:21.156 That there are certain areas in institutions where students are just not consulted. 00:09:22.376 --> 00:09:23.856 And they talked about this. 00:09:23.936 --> 00:09:26.276 They called them, oh, they're higher level decisions. 00:09:26.876 --> 00:09:27.976 They're structural decisions. 00:09:28.093 --> 00:09:30.573 issues that we don't get a say in. 00:09:31.613 --> 00:09:34.253 And so they could sort of see that they were slightly different 00:09:34.253 --> 00:09:41.853 to maybe having pizza on the menu for once a week or their uniforms. 00:09:42.013 --> 00:09:45.093 There was something very different about not being consulted, 00:09:45.613 --> 00:09:49.653 about policy level decisions in schools, 00:09:51.313 --> 00:09:53.113 assessment and curriculum policy, 00:09:53.953 --> 00:09:55.133 about qualification, 00:09:55.133 --> 00:09:58.593 decisions around which boards are going to happen 00:09:58.593 --> 00:10:00.553 which qualifications are available 00:10:00.553 --> 00:10:05.033 they felt that they had no consultation around that. 00:10:10.413 --> 00:10:11.473 I'm actually 00:10:11.473 --> 00:10:13.513 I think we've sort of run over time 00:10:13.513 --> 00:10:15.993 but I'd just like to pick out some things 00:10:15.993 --> 00:10:24.293 that they are really sort of talking about. 00:10:25.133 --> 00:10:28.713 As soon as she said, what's important about school? 00:10:29.853 --> 00:10:33.853 It was examinations, qualifications, getting good grades. 00:10:34.133 --> 00:10:43.960 That was across all 50 focus groups They say that that is important to do well to get a good job to get to university 00:10:45.400 --> 00:10:48.900 But part of what they were also saying 00:10:48.900 --> 00:10:53.320 is that it does have an impact on our learning, 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:55.920 but we like examinations. 00:10:56.640 --> 00:10:58.860 We like qualifications 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:07.920 because sometimes they give us an external opportunity 00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:10.120 where our teachers are not involved. 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.700 This notion of the teacher-student relationship, 00:11:13.140 --> 00:11:14.400 which Paul brought up, 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:16.720 when they started to talk about it, 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:19.680 it was very interesting that actually they realized 00:11:19.680 --> 00:11:21.320 that sometimes their teacher, 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:23.660 when it comes to summative teacher assessment, 00:11:23.660 --> 00:11:27.160 can have a bit too much influence on what happens to them. 00:11:27.160 --> 00:11:34.700 and if the relationships are not constructive this can be detrimental and so qualifications 00:11:34.700 --> 00:11:41.720 examinations external assessments give them some sort of other to which they can show themselves 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:50.020 to good effect they were also very clear that they like variety they want modularity 00:11:50.116 --> 00:11:56.196 courses. They want coursework. They want exams. They see it as fairness. They see it around 00:11:56.196 --> 00:12:01.496 a notion of social justice, that some students are better at some components than others, 00:12:02.076 --> 00:12:08.716 and that this is the fairest way in which you can assess young people. They're very concerned 00:12:08.716 --> 00:12:15.476 about the currency of the qualifications that they're doing. BTECs came up in this respect. 00:12:15.476 --> 00:12:16.796 What are they worth? 00:12:18.056 --> 00:12:20.036 What do employers think about them? 00:12:21.096 --> 00:12:28.036 They're also very concerned about their being told all the time 00:12:28.036 --> 00:12:29.676 that these things are getting easier. 00:12:30.536 --> 00:12:32.416 All these qualifications are getting easier, 00:12:32.536 --> 00:12:35.596 but actually their experience is that it is not easy. 00:12:36.436 --> 00:12:39.576 They're feeling pressure to get A-stars at GCSE. 00:12:39.776 --> 00:12:41.976 They're feeling pressure to get A-stars at A-level. 00:12:42.676 --> 00:12:46.076 They're conscious of the reduction in university places. 00:12:46.276 --> 00:12:51.416 In fact, funding for students came up as a reform that we didn't talk about. 00:12:52.516 --> 00:12:55.436 They were very conscious, maybe it was the time of year that we saw them, 00:12:55.436 --> 00:13:07.723 but they were very conscious about university places being cut having to get higher grades to get into university It just a real maelstrom of pressure that they feel that they under 00:13:08.723 --> 00:13:12.223 But the balance is that they know they need these things 00:13:12.223 --> 00:13:14.263 and they want them and they want to do well 00:13:14.263 --> 00:13:15.943 and they want to achieve. 00:13:18.283 --> 00:13:20.703 Okay, the notes are there. 00:13:20.803 --> 00:13:23.103 I'm happy to talk to anybody over lunch. 00:13:23.103 --> 00:13:26.523 but they did have views on the reforms as well 00:13:26.523 --> 00:13:30.943 again even raising the leaving age 00:13:30.943 --> 00:13:32.383 it was a social justice issue 00:13:32.383 --> 00:13:35.523 they were very clear that it didn't suit everybody 00:13:35.523 --> 00:13:41.783 and that this should be much more taken into consideration 00:13:41.783 --> 00:13:44.923 and I think what Crest is really trying to say 00:13:44.923 --> 00:13:48.423 that if you want good policy reform 00:13:48.423 --> 00:13:49.903 and qualifications 00:13:49.903 --> 00:13:55.143 you must, must, must include a student voice 00:13:55.143 --> 00:13:57.823 and do so constructively and with meaning. 00:13:59.483 --> 00:14:00.903 It's a legal obligation 00:14:00.903 --> 00:14:03.563 but it is also good practice. 00:14:05.143 --> 00:14:06.043 Thank you very much. 00:14:06.043 --> 00:14:06.763 Thank you.