WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.300 several times and I feel it incumbent upon me that we did ask the DfE to come along, they weren't able to do so, 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:15.940 but they did provide us with a statement and I feel it's only just I suppose on their behalf to read out this little bit here. 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:24.200 This year the Government is providing schools with £201 million in their dedicated schools grant for ethnic minority and EAL support. 00:00:24.200 --> 00:00:30.140 We believe that schools are best placed to decide how to use this money in response to local needs, 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:33.900 whether that means buying in support, resource or special advice, 00:00:34.480 --> 00:00:37.400 employing additional teachers or bilingual teaching assistants, 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:40.840 or funding other services as they see fit. 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:45.280 So the DfE's had its chance to add its bit into the funding. 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:54.760 Now, I'd like to ask Diana Sutton from the Bell Foundation. 00:00:54.760 --> 00:01:09.900 The Bell Foundation has been relaunched recently and she is very keen and very focused on EAL policy And I know she has something she wants to say about what we heard so far 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:11.560 Diana, where are you? 00:01:13.440 --> 00:01:16.900 Actually, I was keen to pick up on the point that I raised earlier, 00:01:16.900 --> 00:01:21.640 which is are there methodologies from the sector on teaching English, 00:01:21.980 --> 00:01:26.060 ELT sector, that can be used in this sector, in the EAL sector, 00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:28.320 particularly CLIL that you mentioned, Timothy, earlier, 00:01:28.660 --> 00:01:30.020 and also young learners. 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:33.560 It seems to me, coming from the outside of this field, 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:38.560 that there is potentially more sharing of expertise within the sector, 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:40.240 and I'm just keen, actually, Timothy, 00:01:40.300 --> 00:01:44.100 to hear a little bit more about that from you or from yourself, Frank, 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:45.260 from other speakers on the panel. 00:01:45.260 --> 00:01:45.840 Thank you. 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:46.840 From Nick. 00:01:46.900 --> 00:01:47.740 Or from Nick. 00:01:47.740 --> 00:01:51.060 Who would like to pick that up first? 00:01:52.320 --> 00:01:55.580 Well, I think that because it has a very clear focus 00:01:55.580 --> 00:02:09.799 on content and it has a focus on language you would be mad to say that it has nothing to contribute But I think one of the issues around CLIL is that it has grown in second language contexts and the context of the learner in this country is different 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:15.679 And I think what I'd also want to challenge about it is the point that Pete was making very strongly, 00:02:16.179 --> 00:02:20.799 is that it doesn't necessarily challenge this native speaker type norm, 00:02:21.339 --> 00:02:23.459 the idea that it's a monolingual norm. 00:02:23.459 --> 00:02:27.819 And I think what we need to start relaxing about is the fact that language is shifting 00:02:27.819 --> 00:02:31.019 and that we now have societies which are plurilingual, 00:02:31.579 --> 00:02:36.499 where children are using a range of repertoires and you can't divide them up as easily, 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.199 say this is English and they've just thrown in a bit of their German there. 00:02:40.519 --> 00:02:44.759 It's a much more fluid dynamic that's taking place in language at the moment. 00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:46.659 As we move forward, it's going to become more and more fluid. 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:52.279 So some of these issues around our very tight attempts to control written language 00:02:52.279 --> 00:02:55.279 are doomed to failure, I think. 00:02:55.279 --> 00:02:56.739 And so there are going to be other issues 00:02:56.739 --> 00:03:12.539 about how do we respond to growing plurilingualism translanguaging that taking place in the world how do we respond to that on the social level that there about the kind of societies I was dismayed to hear Phil Woolis say things that were essentially blaming those communities 00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:16.039 for wanting to speak their own language and essentially saying we wasted money 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.699 on trying to give them access through their own language. 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.559 That's an extraordinary notion that those people are responsible for that. 00:03:22.559 --> 00:03:27.439 Instead of the problem being us, the debate is framed in terms of the impact of non-natives. 00:03:27.459 --> 00:03:31.419 speakers in schools. What is the impact of schools on non-native speakers is another 00:03:31.419 --> 00:03:35.559 way. What is the impact of society on non-native speakers? Pete gave some very 00:03:35.559 --> 00:03:39.459 good illustrations about how we construct them. So, Khalil, yes, there are some very 00:03:39.459 --> 00:03:43.539 interesting technique things that we can learn from that. A very dynamic approach, and it's 00:03:43.539 --> 00:03:47.519 obviously successful. Massive business going on there. But it's not going to be the 00:03:47.519 --> 00:03:48.999 only answer. We need to think more broadly. 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:54.359 From Helen Chauvet in the audience, who also brought this up, 00:03:54.359 --> 00:04:00.359 In a sense you've just responded to that as CLIL as an English-speaking operation. 00:04:00.359 --> 00:04:03.139 CLIL's used all over Europe to 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:05.860 teach all sorts of different languages in all sorts of different contexts. 00:04:05.880 --> 00:04:07.000 And in each of them, it's the same. 00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:09.880 Right, the same problem. 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:11.320 Yes, Pete. 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:14.520 I mean, again, I'm not familiar with CLIL in the UK, 00:04:14.720 --> 00:04:16.840 but what I can say about some other countries, 00:04:17.080 --> 00:04:20.680 and definitely the Belgian context, is CLIL is very powerful. 00:04:20.880 --> 00:04:22.660 We know that. There is a lot of empirical evidence. 00:04:22.960 --> 00:04:25.740 But what we see from a migrant perspective 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:28.360 is that most of the CLIL examples I know of 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:30.960 is with status languages. 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.360 It is with German, it is with French, it is with Spanish, it is with Italian. 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:40.060 Is it in Flanders with Turkish, with Arabic? 00:04:40.580 --> 00:04:41.040 No. 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.700 So if you introduce CLIL and only do it for status languages, 00:04:45.700 --> 00:04:50.180 this has a negative impact on migrant children as well on the cognitive level 00:04:50.180 --> 00:04:51.920 as at the non-cognitive level. 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.800 Yes, could I comment, pick up on, I think, three points. 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:12.739 The whole concept of plurilingualism has emerged alongside the work of the Council of Europe with the Common European Framework of Reference And the Common European Framework of Reference at least in our context of Cambridge ESOL 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.059 has become a very powerful way of thinking about progression of language learning across 00:05:18.059 --> 00:05:22.119 levels as a school and lifelong learning ambition. 00:05:22.919 --> 00:05:28.619 And the idea of plurilingualism for a single person as a language learner, like myself, 00:05:28.619 --> 00:05:32.559 or like any of you, is that you do develop in the course of your life 00:05:32.559 --> 00:05:34.959 a range of language skills. 00:05:35.719 --> 00:05:37.819 In fact, the term used is a repertoire. 00:05:38.499 --> 00:05:43.639 And whether it's language for chemistry or language for going to the beach in Spain 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:47.279 where you've picked up some Spanish, or indeed your A-level French, 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:53.139 or as you carry on through life the language you need for your job 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:56.059 interacting with Italians or whoever it is, 00:05:56.379 --> 00:05:58.499 this creates a repertoire of skills. 00:05:58.619 --> 00:06:11.599 And this is where I think we need to think of language learning not simply as a way of acquiring a thing And I think that the way a single if you like monolithic thing 00:06:11.719 --> 00:06:14.719 So you can develop repertoires in different skills. 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:17.119 So if you need to speak, you develop speaking skills. 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:20.819 If you need to listen or read, you develop those skills. 00:06:21.419 --> 00:06:23.839 And I think that's an interesting thing to think about. 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:35.599 Then when we come back to CLIL, I think it's quite different in the case of English for speakers of other languages like Cambridge ESOL around the world in the context I was thinking of. 00:06:36.219 --> 00:06:39.679 Here, the focus is on learning the language predominantly. 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:41.819 English is a foreign language, if you like. 00:06:41.819 --> 00:06:46.819 And as you go through learning in schools now, 00:06:46.819 --> 00:06:49.819 in order to reach the levels that people aspire to, 00:06:49.819 --> 00:06:52.819 actually contextualizing the language with content 00:06:52.819 --> 00:06:54.819 is proven to be very helpful. 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:56.819 But that's quite different, it seems to me, 00:06:56.819 --> 00:06:59.819 than the immersion model we have in the UK, 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:12.358 where you have to study through the medium of English And the question arises is at what point is it useful to focus on form to actually get as we heard from speakers this morning to actually attend 00:07:12.358 --> 00:07:17.958 to the parts of the language which would be helpful in improving their skills, particularly 00:07:17.958 --> 00:07:24.578 their academic proficiency. And that raises the point of what sort of assessment we should 00:07:24.578 --> 00:07:29.658 do, either at the end of the process or during the process. 00:07:29.658 --> 00:07:36.618 And we are now, certainly in Cambridge ESOL, thinking of better ways in linking the outcomes 00:07:36.618 --> 00:07:41.118 with the process of learning, using the concept of learning-oriented assessment. 00:07:41.878 --> 00:07:46.698 And indeed, that ties up with the point I've just made of at what point in learning, in 00:07:46.698 --> 00:07:52.678 scaffolding learning, can you get people to attend to things, assessing whether or not 00:07:52.678 --> 00:07:56.558 they can do it or how well they can do it and then giving them feedback in order to 00:07:56.558 --> 00:08:02.578 get improvement, not simply to score them or to categorize them in some way. 00:08:02.578 --> 00:08:06.378 So I think that idea of learning-oriented assessment which 00:08:06.479 --> 00:08:11.259 what goes on in the classroom to the outcome levels that are needed in society 00:08:11.259 --> 00:08:15.699 is a very important new departure and what we need to focus on. 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:25.519 That lady, I beg your pardon. 00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:29.419 I have to stand up. 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.219 I'm Judith Evans. I'm from the Collaborative Learning Project. 00:08:35.219 --> 00:08:37.779 I am quite old 00:08:37.779 --> 00:08:41.799 and when I was first a teacher in Ilya 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:43.779 we had something called the primary language record 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:47.759 which was I think the best assessment ongoing 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.739 looking at evaluating language tool that had ever existed 00:08:50.739 --> 00:08:52.759 and it disappeared 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.339 and I think we could usefully look at bringing it back 00:08:56.339 --> 00:08:58.719 rather than trying to start again from somewhere else 00:08:58.719 --> 00:09:01.939 that would be my mission in life if I could achieve that 00:09:01.939 --> 00:09:14.659 Sorry could you just expand on that a teeny bit The primary language record which obviously was not in secondary schools and some teachers didn like it because it didn fit on the shelf 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.379 That was an issue, but if you bought a washing powder box, 00:09:17.439 --> 00:09:18.819 you could store them in that, so it was all fine. 00:09:20.299 --> 00:09:22.199 You evaluated your children. 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.279 You didn't do your whole class in one test on one day. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.059 You worked through them in bits, 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.259 and you looked at their use of language in all contexts. 00:09:30.059 --> 00:09:32.839 So you looked at how they talked on the playground. 00:09:33.179 --> 00:09:34.319 Against a set of criteria? 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:37.199 Yes, you had a model of development that you were assessing it. 00:09:37.359 --> 00:09:40.619 And you talked to their families about how they used language at home. 00:09:40.739 --> 00:09:41.619 You looked at their reading. 00:09:41.739 --> 00:09:42.799 You looked at the work they were doing. 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:46.299 You talked to the children about how they used language. 00:09:46.439 --> 00:09:49.779 So they told you what they did at the mosque or things like that. 00:09:50.079 --> 00:09:53.479 So you had, as a teacher, and as a primary class teacher, 00:09:53.599 --> 00:09:54.539 you spent all the hours. 00:09:54.619 --> 00:09:56.779 Your children's language development is in your hands. 00:09:56.779 --> 00:10:01.779 You had such a holistic picture of every single child's learning. 00:10:01.779 --> 00:10:14.238 And you had time to do it because you weren doing SATs or anything like that or phonics tests or any horrific things like that You were actually doing things that mattered And you knew where children were and then you could produce wonderful activities 00:10:14.238 --> 00:10:16.878 where they were talking to each other, where they were learning across the curriculum. 00:10:17.298 --> 00:10:22.358 And I think language development was better when we had that than when we've had anything we've had since. 00:10:22.978 --> 00:10:26.698 That's my humble view. And it's not just because I've got older and tired and less energetic. 00:10:27.138 --> 00:10:29.298 Thank you very much. 00:10:29.298 --> 00:10:30.218 Thank you very much. 00:10:30.218 --> 00:10:36.358 It does sometimes feel that we all go around in a great big circle every so often in education. 00:10:37.018 --> 00:10:41.498 I've got a couple of others coming from the audience or online. 00:10:42.118 --> 00:10:46.838 Somebody's making the perfectly reasonable point that English language speaking teachers cannot alone 00:10:46.838 --> 00:10:52.478 understand the exact needs of the student, appreciate the crucial relevant factors, 00:10:53.278 --> 00:10:58.818 bridge the language difference and deal with the other important issues that are going on in the classroom. 00:10:58.818 --> 00:11:03.318 is there a role for language education assistants, 00:11:03.318 --> 00:11:14.898 not education assistants that do this that and the other and a little bit of language on the side but language assistants in the classroom engaged all the time for that 00:11:15.158 --> 00:11:18.378 Interesting question about whether that's important. 00:11:18.378 --> 00:11:22.378 still on cultural matters 00:11:22.378 --> 00:11:25.938 Rona Grobovsky 00:11:25.938 --> 00:11:28.138 from Luton Borough Council 00:11:28.138 --> 00:11:30.258 wants to pick up a point 00:11:30.258 --> 00:11:32.498 that Philida made in terms of 00:11:32.498 --> 00:11:35.718 the report back to students 00:11:35.718 --> 00:11:37.398 the feedback to students 00:11:37.398 --> 00:11:40.058 in a supportive manner 00:11:40.058 --> 00:11:41.418 and she points out 00:11:41.418 --> 00:11:43.058 I may have this wrong Rona 00:11:43.058 --> 00:11:46.258 because your writing is even worse than mine 00:11:46.258 --> 00:11:58.758 As I understand what you're saying here is actually that by and large, teachers tend 00:11:58.758 --> 00:12:05.658 not to deliver, don't want to deliver critical comments on a whole range of learning. 00:12:05.658 --> 00:12:09.618 They want to scaffold, they want to build, they want to be positive, they don't like 00:12:09.719 --> 00:12:13.319 But actually when it comes to building the language facility, 00:12:13.859 --> 00:12:17.619 you may have to be perhaps more critical than you are in other contexts. 00:12:17.819 --> 00:12:22.579 It's not exactly critical, but it's sort of correcting in a supportive way to help the students. 00:12:23.299 --> 00:12:25.099 Correcting in a supportive way. 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.379 And then there are challenges that follow from that, 00:12:28.459 --> 00:12:30.979 depending on the cultural context in which you find yourself. 00:12:30.999 --> 00:12:33.839 It's a sort of reluctance to correct, 00:12:34.319 --> 00:12:37.139 because we're all so impressed with how well they're getting on, 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:41.319 that once they've sort of reached their level in their SATs 00:12:41.319 --> 00:12:42.539 or their GCSE results, 00:12:42.819 --> 00:12:45.499 and somebody else said how it can seem to regress sometimes 00:12:45.499 --> 00:12:47.379 after they've done their GCSEs, 00:12:47.859 --> 00:12:49.699 it's a feeling, well, they've caught up now, 00:12:49.959 --> 00:12:54.539 but they still need that extra input for really perfecting it, 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.959 and they're able to do it if we help them with it, 00:12:56.959 --> 00:12:58.639 but they're not if we don't. 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:01.839 And because they're all watching their own TV channels now at home, 00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:03.199 because of satellite TV, 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:04.959 they're not hearing good modelling 00:13:04.959 --> 00:13:15.958 sort of after the end of the school day either So it needs in a way almost more As you back to was it Frank who was talking about taking language away because they got enough 00:13:16.198 --> 00:13:16.398 Yeah. 00:13:16.618 --> 00:13:16.798 Okay. 00:13:17.218 --> 00:13:17.418 Yes. 00:13:17.518 --> 00:13:19.298 Can I just make one point on that there as well? 00:13:19.538 --> 00:13:22.938 That we had an attempt to look at formative assessment 00:13:22.938 --> 00:13:23.738 in this country, 00:13:23.998 --> 00:13:26.678 and the fantastic work done by Paul Black on that 00:13:26.678 --> 00:13:30.538 went into a downward spiral when it became politicised 00:13:31.198 --> 00:13:32.838 and became something quite different. 00:13:32.838 --> 00:13:37.698 but what was beginning to happen was the APP, the Assessment of Pupil Progress 00:13:37.698 --> 00:13:42.018 and there was an attempt to develop that specifically for EAL learners 00:13:42.018 --> 00:13:44.658 because it was recognised again that it was this monolingual model 00:13:44.658 --> 00:13:46.398 and it wasn't really working for EAL students 00:13:46.398 --> 00:13:50.638 and quite a bit of money was spent on working on that on EAL 00:13:50.638 --> 00:13:52.778 and the government, the ZFA, have sat on it 00:13:52.778 --> 00:13:54.738 and they've refused to publish those materials. 00:13:54.738 --> 00:13:59.938 Now there are things in there that were genuinely trying to get to the heart of this issue 00:13:59.938 --> 00:14:03.938 about feedback to students, and this progressive training 00:14:03.938 --> 00:14:05.778 in the classroom, which I think lies at the heart 00:14:05.778 --> 00:14:19.218 of all education is formative assessment working with the child in that progressive way that was there once under the IADA I suppose but not wanting to go back over the past But you know we come to a point now where language is being deliberately hidden 00:14:19.478 --> 00:14:21.778 and I don't pull my punches on this one. 00:14:22.038 --> 00:14:28.058 The DFE has refused to publish those materials, as they did with the link materials with Ron Carter 00:14:28.058 --> 00:14:30.958 in the previous Conservative administration. 00:14:31.338 --> 00:14:33.018 This is not a political point. Yes, it is. 00:14:33.318 --> 00:14:34.718 But they did that then as well. 00:14:34.718 --> 00:14:37.078 and there is this attempt to hide language issues 00:14:37.078 --> 00:14:42.278 because there is an agenda to have this monolingual 1950s Britain presented to us 00:14:42.278 --> 00:14:43.538 and that's not where we live. 00:14:44.578 --> 00:14:45.298 And it's shameful. 00:14:46.298 --> 00:14:47.378 By all means, yes. 00:14:48.778 --> 00:14:53.598 Just to comment briefly from a perspective again as English as a foreign language, 00:14:54.298 --> 00:14:58.178 we saw a turn in the 1980s which focused on language as communication 00:14:58.178 --> 00:15:01.478 and for many people that meant they didn't focus on grammar anymore. 00:15:02.438 --> 00:15:03.518 Actually that was a mistake 00:15:03.518 --> 00:15:22.957 taken what the question is really is at what point and in what way is it appropriate to focus on form in the development of a learner in order to as Frank was saying to provide the formative input to help them move to the next stage in a sort of Vygotskian way 00:15:23.597 --> 00:15:25.797 We've recently been doing research in Cambridge 00:15:25.797 --> 00:15:29.737 on the concept of criteria features of L2 English, 00:15:30.037 --> 00:15:31.477 which is to try and work out, 00:15:32.017 --> 00:15:37.337 as you go through the progression from a beginner to a proficient learner, 00:15:38.257 --> 00:15:43.237 what a learner begins to master at what stage, 00:15:43.617 --> 00:15:45.897 and therefore how you can, for different learners, 00:15:45.897 --> 00:15:48.717 in a more individualised way, give them feedback, 00:15:48.797 --> 00:15:50.077 which is going to help them move on. 00:15:50.677 --> 00:15:52.157 So indeed, to focus on form, 00:15:52.157 --> 00:15:58.717 that's the grammar and lexis, in contexts which are actually usable for learning purposes. 00:15:58.717 --> 00:16:01.977 I think this is an important point which we've been hearing about today. 00:16:01.977 --> 00:16:08.277 I want to just address a couple of other things that come up onto, as it were, the 00:16:08.277 --> 00:16:12.857 severely practical, but which links in to what we've just been talking about. 00:16:12.958 --> 00:16:14.958 EAL ceases when you've had enough. 00:16:15.318 --> 00:16:17.678 It is also interesting, we don't have an exam board, 00:16:18.078 --> 00:16:22.038 somebody from a UK exam board here today to answer this sort of question, 00:16:22.638 --> 00:16:27.558 but it would appear that you can't ask for extra time for your EAL student 00:16:27.558 --> 00:16:29.098 if they've been here more than two years. 00:16:29.398 --> 00:16:30.978 We're back to the how much is enough. 00:16:31.058 --> 00:16:35.458 It looks like the entire system predicates a level 00:16:35.458 --> 00:16:37.738 at which you no longer need any assistance, 00:16:38.418 --> 00:16:40.898 and that cutoff can be three years, can be two years, 00:16:40.898 --> 00:16:45.958 can be, as you pointed out, enough, and who makes those kinds of decisions. Worth, I suspect, 00:16:46.358 --> 00:16:51.538 raising with government in terms of policy. After all this, we're going to be sending 00:16:51.538 --> 00:17:01.298 a few things to government as to what we've discovered. So those were those. A couple 00:17:01.298 --> 00:17:04.558 of more interesting, well, there's a similar sort of line. Again, we don't have anyone 00:17:04.558 --> 00:17:19.838 who can answer these things but of course things are changing at GCSE Modular courses It generally accepted that if you an EAL student modular courses are probably more suited to the way in which you learn Modular courses are going they about to come there 00:17:22.298 --> 00:17:25.298 Controlled assessment rather than coursework. 00:17:26.358 --> 00:17:34.558 And then you're going to have additional spelling and grammar added into all GCSEs. 00:17:34.558 --> 00:17:39.418 these are clearly going to have an impact on, well, not specifically EAL learners, 00:17:39.518 --> 00:17:40.498 quite a lot of learners. 00:17:41.398 --> 00:17:46.858 So those are interesting facts that I think we need to put into the mix, 00:17:46.958 --> 00:17:47.838 the policy mix. 00:17:47.958 --> 00:17:51.698 I'm not sure is there anybody here from OCR who would actually like to say 00:17:51.698 --> 00:17:52.798 anything about these things? 00:17:55.498 --> 00:17:55.978 Yes? 00:17:56.438 --> 00:17:58.738 Jane Gogarty from OCR. 00:17:58.738 --> 00:18:06.418 In actual fact, I'm part of the language team that develop set exams in foreign languages, 00:18:06.418 --> 00:18:08.978 i.e. not in English exams, but in foreign languages. 00:18:08.978 --> 00:18:24.597 I also part of the asset languages project from fairly early on in its development And there been a number of points made about bilingualism and making that a norm 00:18:24.597 --> 00:18:30.537 rather than something that's seen as an odd thing to do. 00:18:31.077 --> 00:18:38.477 And through the asset languages work, we have seen that where students for whom English is not a first language, 00:18:38.477 --> 00:18:41.917 where they have been supported in their own language. 00:18:42.177 --> 00:18:43.337 They are motivated. 00:18:43.977 --> 00:18:47.817 They see that having their own language is something that is worthwhile. 00:18:48.657 --> 00:18:53.237 And especially in students who have been disaffected within school, 00:18:53.697 --> 00:18:55.217 they have been turned around 00:18:55.217 --> 00:18:59.437 because they see that what they've actually got is something worthwhile. 00:19:00.377 --> 00:19:03.057 That's not saying that they shouldn't be supported in English. 00:19:03.137 --> 00:19:03.957 Of course they should. 00:19:03.957 --> 00:19:28.457 but their own language learning shouldn be sidelined because it is very important And I also think that a point has been made about people who for whom learning the grammar of English an English speaker not understanding the grammar of English when they learn a second language and being asked about verbs and adverbs and things and how difficult that is to relate to another language 00:19:28.457 --> 00:19:32.457 think about a student for whom English is in the first language 00:19:32.457 --> 00:19:36.437 and they are given supported work in English 00:19:36.437 --> 00:19:38.717 and talked about verbs and that sort of thing. 00:19:38.717 --> 00:19:42.157 If they don't know what that is or how that relates to their own language 00:19:42.157 --> 00:19:44.757 supporting them in their own language can give that 00:19:44.757 --> 00:19:47.117 and give them a way of relating to English 00:19:47.117 --> 00:19:51.737 and in actual fact improve their ability to learn English as a second language. 00:19:52.937 --> 00:19:53.937 Thank you very much. 00:19:54.197 --> 00:19:55.317 Pete, do you have a... 00:19:55.317 --> 00:19:57.677 I would strongly like to support that 00:19:57.677 --> 00:20:00.177 And that's what we experienced in the experiment, 00:20:00.177 --> 00:20:02.917 four-year experiment we are doing in primary schools 00:20:02.917 --> 00:20:05.857 and kindergarten schools in Flanders. 00:20:05.857 --> 00:20:07.377 All of the teachers were not in favor 00:20:07.377 --> 00:20:10.057 of having the plurilingual experiment. 00:20:10.057 --> 00:20:11.277 They were all against the idea. 00:20:11.277 --> 00:20:16.097 Their main concern was it will not contribute on the country. 00:20:16.198 --> 00:20:21.638 It will slow down the L2 Dutch learning processes. 00:20:22.218 --> 00:20:25.518 Already after one year in the interviews we did with the teachers, 00:20:25.638 --> 00:20:29.298 they all said these children are now much more motivated, 00:20:29.618 --> 00:20:34.678 not only in terms of their self-esteem and their awareness of their own language, 00:20:34.938 --> 00:20:38.858 but much more motivated to be involved in the learning of Dutch. 00:20:39.498 --> 00:20:42.418 They came to the teacher and they said, 00:20:42.838 --> 00:20:45.158 Teacher, this word, what does it mean in Dutch? 00:20:45.158 --> 00:20:48.218 my boyfriend says it in Turkish 00:20:48.218 --> 00:20:49.958 but I'm interested, all kind of 00:20:49.958 --> 00:20:52.058 these dynamics suddenly 00:20:52.058 --> 00:20:53.918 popped up due to the fact that the 00:20:53.918 --> 00:20:56.198 plurilingual repertoires were used and exploited 00:20:56.198 --> 00:20:57.398 by the teachers 00:20:57.398 --> 00:20:59.438 I think it's very important also 00:20:59.438 --> 00:21:01.618 as I said, in the learning of 00:21:01.618 --> 00:21:03.618 Dutch in our case 00:21:03.618 --> 00:21:06.258 I have to say, I suspect that it has a lot 00:21:06.258 --> 00:21:08.118 more to do with having an integrated 00:21:08.118 --> 00:21:09.438 coherent program there 00:21:09.438 --> 00:21:11.738 I think what Phil Willis was talking about earlier 00:21:11.738 --> 00:21:23.957 were people just taking GCSE in home language because they could take the GCSE in home language not because there was any kind of coherent bringing together in the school of the learning of the home language 00:21:23.957 --> 00:21:26.337 and the learning of English and building them together? 00:21:26.977 --> 00:21:27.697 Would that be... 00:21:27.697 --> 00:21:29.417 Yes, but... 00:21:29.417 --> 00:21:30.917 No, sorry, you picked first. 00:21:31.137 --> 00:21:36.697 No, I take that point, and again, I can only speak for the Flemish context, 00:21:36.697 --> 00:21:43.957 But I had my doubts, and to some extent I tended to disagree with what Phyllis said. 00:21:44.797 --> 00:21:48.497 On the basis of research we've done with migrant parents in Flanders, 00:21:49.137 --> 00:21:54.937 all parents, all parents, the first concern is we want our kids to learn Dutch. 00:21:55.137 --> 00:21:59.737 It is a completely misunderstanding amongst mainly politicians, with all my respect, 00:21:59.737 --> 00:22:07.557 about the fact that migrant parents are not interested in their children learning the second language. 00:22:07.557 --> 00:22:12.377 And I think this is important to take into account in the way we perceive and deal and communicate with parents. 00:22:13.737 --> 00:22:24.297 I echo the same point I didn agree with the point that this perpetuated a problem I didn feel that that was correct I think it very important actually what being said 00:22:24.437 --> 00:22:29.257 that the children are encouraged to make comparisons between their first language and then the second language 00:22:29.257 --> 00:22:32.897 and look at systems and so on. There's so much cognition goes on there. 00:22:33.157 --> 00:22:36.577 It's being proved through translanguaging and all kinds of things which are going on now. 00:22:36.717 --> 00:22:39.757 So I think it's a really important component of language learning. 00:22:39.757 --> 00:22:42.557 I'm afraid we're running out of time 00:22:42.557 --> 00:22:44.257 so I'm going to finish on a point 00:22:44.257 --> 00:22:46.697 from Christine Braun from Lancashire 00:22:46.697 --> 00:22:48.797 very simple 00:22:48.797 --> 00:22:50.677 yet deceptively complicated 00:22:50.677 --> 00:22:52.917 question, how do you develop 00:22:52.917 --> 00:22:54.697 allowing for 00:22:54.697 --> 00:22:56.677 we need academic language, allowing for 00:22:56.677 --> 00:22:58.517 metalinguistic skills, etc 00:22:58.517 --> 00:23:00.917 how do you develop the linguistic 00:23:00.917 --> 00:23:02.377 awareness and expertise 00:23:02.377 --> 00:23:04.097 of mainstream teachers 00:23:04.097 --> 00:23:06.057 any advice please 00:23:06.057 --> 00:23:07.917 there we are, I'm going to leave that now 00:23:07.917 --> 00:23:08.877 I'm going to leave that with you. 00:23:09.177 --> 00:23:11.297 You chaps all have as much time as you'd like 00:23:11.297 --> 00:23:12.297 to answer that question. 00:23:12.577 --> 00:23:13.577 I'd possibly buy the book. 00:23:13.697 --> 00:23:24.096 I mean is that one of them But if anybody else has got anything to share by all means share it now or by all means stand up and say I am happy to talk to somebody afterwards if you got any ideas on this 00:23:24.916 --> 00:23:25.316 Right. 00:23:26.076 --> 00:23:27.396 I'm going to start out here, then. 00:23:27.636 --> 00:23:31.496 I shall start with Lee, then, yes, the lady there, and then over there. 00:23:32.856 --> 00:23:38.696 Yeah, I think the main thing I've taken from this is it's confirmed my suspicion 00:23:38.696 --> 00:23:41.556 that what we need to do is start with teachers and their knowledge about language, 00:23:41.556 --> 00:23:45.116 and it's a CPD issue for existing teachers 00:23:45.116 --> 00:23:49.316 and it's a teacher training issue for new colleagues coming into the system. 00:23:50.176 --> 00:23:53.256 So just to plug what we're doing at Parkview, 00:23:53.716 --> 00:23:57.036 we are using that functional model of language 00:23:57.036 --> 00:24:01.376 through some professional development courses that I've been on 00:24:01.376 --> 00:24:05.276 and other colleagues have been on to try and create some evidence 00:24:05.276 --> 00:24:08.656 that we're having an impact on the students' learning 00:24:08.656 --> 00:24:11.176 and we're working with an academic from Aston University, 00:24:11.176 --> 00:24:16.456 Dr. Ursula Clark, she's writing an MA module for our teachers to take this and 00:24:16.456 --> 00:24:19.336 put it into practice through action research in the classroom and 00:24:19.437 --> 00:24:20.457 write it up as a dissertation. 00:24:20.597 --> 00:24:21.577 That will be starting next year. 00:24:22.197 --> 00:24:24.917 And we're also in the process of putting together a bid 00:24:24.917 --> 00:24:28.637 to the Education Endowment Fund for about a million and a half pounds 00:24:28.637 --> 00:24:30.197 to do this in other schools. 00:24:30.437 --> 00:24:33.297 So if there's anybody here that wants to know more about that, 00:24:33.377 --> 00:24:37.917 wants to find out about that, and we can include you in our thinking, 00:24:38.117 --> 00:24:40.557 please do come and speak to me because, you know, 00:24:40.677 --> 00:24:42.897 I think this is the thing we need to do. 00:24:42.977 --> 00:24:44.617 We need to train teachers. 00:24:44.977 --> 00:24:46.137 We need to trial it in the classroom. 00:24:46.257 --> 00:24:47.917 We need to give them supportive consultants 00:24:47.917 --> 00:24:51.157 and people who can do that with them through action research, 00:24:51.317 --> 00:24:53.897 get them to write it up and then convince other people 00:24:53.897 --> 00:24:54.977 that it's the way forward as well. 00:24:55.037 --> 00:24:57.817 So if anyone wants to know more about that, come in and speak to me. 00:24:57.877 --> 00:24:58.937 The lady behind. 00:24:59.937 --> 00:25:00.397 Thank you. 00:25:01.717 --> 00:25:05.277 As you said, that you are going to write to the government 00:25:05.277 --> 00:25:07.377 as a result of today's meeting. 00:25:07.957 --> 00:25:10.217 And in our pack, there is a handout, 00:25:10.217 --> 00:25:12.377 which is a brief summary of the government. 00:25:12.817 --> 00:25:14.057 Everyone has got it. 00:25:14.897 --> 00:25:29.797 I see you have redlined it all Yes I just like everyone opinion here with regards to page one when EAL pupils are referred to as black and minority ethnic 00:25:30.537 --> 00:25:33.417 Is that still appropriate to use this terminology? 00:25:33.417 --> 00:25:47.537 Also page four, saying that under the title of community cohesion, government believes that promoting tolerance and building harmonious communities is important. 00:25:47.717 --> 00:25:54.097 But this sort of promoting tolerance, it's really a lot of us have got problems with that. 00:25:54.537 --> 00:26:02.017 Because English is not our first language, we've learned the word tolerance means, and the dictionary's definition is the same, 00:26:02.017 --> 00:26:04.857 that it's something that you put up with. 00:26:04.857 --> 00:26:07.637 And you don't really like it, but you put up with it. 00:26:07.637 --> 00:26:09.657 So government is actually, 00:26:09.657 --> 00:26:12.897 wants to promote this tolerance towards these people. 00:26:12.897 --> 00:26:30.396 It actually creates immediately some sort of hostile sort of feeling that oh my God you know these aliens are too tolerant And the final point is that is it appropriate for ESOL learners to be under the same umbrella 00:26:30.396 --> 00:26:36.536 as the basic skills, which is now referred to as a slightly better sort of terminology 00:26:36.536 --> 00:26:41.676 as essential skills, but still dealing with people with low literacy, numeracy, 00:26:42.136 --> 00:26:43.656 and they've got special needs. 00:26:44.136 --> 00:26:45.976 So, is it still appropriate? 00:26:45.976 --> 00:26:49.136 I think you've identified the reason why we're having this conversation. 00:26:50.376 --> 00:26:50.676 Right. 00:26:52.176 --> 00:26:54.076 We're going to finish up there, ladies and gentlemen, 00:26:54.076 --> 00:26:56.256 because I know people want to get back home. 00:26:56.736 --> 00:26:58.336 Thank you all very much for coming. 00:26:58.476 --> 00:27:00.936 May I say that much of my job consists in translating 00:27:00.936 --> 00:27:04.076 what politicians say to teachers and vice versa. 00:27:04.516 --> 00:27:06.956 I think you will find the word tolerance in political language 00:27:06.956 --> 00:27:08.596 is a different word altogether. 00:27:08.856 --> 00:27:10.816 We're back to chemistry, and what does that mean? 00:27:11.476 --> 00:27:14.476 We're all talking slightly different languages all of the time, 00:27:14.476 --> 00:27:34.296 and something to be aware of even before we get into the classroom Thank you very much for coming I think it been incredibly interesting I think it been the only intelligent debate on this area which we were warned in advance is quite crackly There are all sorts of political correctness and challenges within this area 00:27:34.296 --> 00:27:39.316 but I think we have addressed very real problems. 00:27:39.856 --> 00:27:41.856 I think there are one or two themes in there 00:27:41.856 --> 00:27:45.016 where we've actually come close to answers or consensus. 00:27:46.156 --> 00:27:47.796 We will be writing this up. 00:27:48.056 --> 00:27:51.896 It can all be watched again on the Cambridge Assessment website. 00:27:52.536 --> 00:27:55.376 We will be putting up all of the presentations 00:27:55.376 --> 00:27:58.136 so those of you that are looking for the email addresses 00:27:58.136 --> 00:28:01.336 and so on and so forth will find them up on the website 00:28:01.336 --> 00:28:08.216 and we will then I think be writing to the government 00:28:08.216 --> 00:28:11.796 on the issues that we've raised here 00:28:11.796 --> 00:28:14.376 and that will then also be going up on the website 00:28:14.376 --> 00:28:17.136 when I finally have time to get around to drafting it. 00:28:17.496 --> 00:28:18.636 Thank you very much. 00:28:18.636 --> 00:28:19.416 Thank you. 00:28:21.556 --> 00:28:22.556 APPLAUSE