WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.340 First of all, can you tell me who you are and what you do? 00:00:02.760 --> 00:00:07.040 I'm Gordon Stobart. I'm Professor of Education at the Institute of Education. 00:00:08.140 --> 00:00:14.240 So, Professor Stobart, first of all, can you give me your general impressions of the debate this morning? 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:24.620 I was impressed with it. I think that format with a large group all contributing things can often go all over the place, 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:29.320 but I felt there were some quite good themes came out and people kind of stuck to it. 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.780 It was productive for me anyway, listening to what people say. 00:00:32.980 --> 00:00:35.500 So what sort of themes in particular struck you? 00:00:36.760 --> 00:00:41.860 I think this whole concern over the role of exams 00:00:41.860 --> 00:00:48.660 and I thought coming out the role of government in examinations and employers and things like that. 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:54.060 But I think particularly who's responsible for this and who's dictating what goes on. 00:00:54.060 --> 00:01:01.940 I think probably particularly timely we're 10 days or two weeks away from the election. 00:01:01.940 --> 00:01:09.360 What's the message to the politicians from you, from the people gathered here this morning 00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:22.871 about the future of examinations and exam standards I thought there was a message maybe a biased audience here but there was a message about just government should be standing back from some of this that the right 00:01:22.871 --> 00:01:28.891 to hold the ring but there's been so much involvement and dictating what should be done 00:01:28.891 --> 00:01:35.411 and things that I think the mood there was very much that it's time to step back a bit and let 00:01:35.411 --> 00:01:39.711 let the awarding bodies, let the different constituencies get involved. 00:01:40.271 --> 00:01:42.931 How realistic a proposition do you think that is? 00:01:42.991 --> 00:01:49.331 It's not government default to simply stand back and let people get on with it. 00:01:49.651 --> 00:01:54.591 So how do you persuade government to do that, to give people more leeway? 00:01:54.751 --> 00:01:59.311 I think that's a hard one because every party will announce it's going to stand back 00:01:59.311 --> 00:02:00.971 and be at arm's length and things like that, 00:02:00.971 --> 00:02:07.371 and yet it's very hard to resist muscling in at various points if you've got an agenda and things like that. 00:02:07.431 --> 00:02:14.311 So I think it may be to do with holding parties to their promises when it comes to it. 00:02:14.311 --> 00:02:17.491 You said you were going to back off, you said you were going to do this, 00:02:17.551 --> 00:02:25.711 and let's see if they can, if they're constitutionally capable of not getting involved from time to time. 00:02:25.711 --> 00:02:32.351 I think probably the debate over examinations and exam standards is probably the top 00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:39.260 of a very, very big pyramid in debating about education in general. 00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:42.800 It's a hot topic. It's becoming hotter. 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:48.600 What would your messages be in general on education to an incoming government? 00:02:50.040 --> 00:02:52.120 Not to make it even hotter. 00:02:52.380 --> 00:02:55.460 I mean, the idea, for me, it's to do with the accountability system 00:02:55.980 --> 00:02:58.680 and how the results of examinations are being used. 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:02.700 I think this is, to an extent, poisoning the system at the moment. 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:06.680 I think the exams are reasonable enough, but they're being put to so many uses, 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:08.940 and many of them about accountability. 00:03:09.660 --> 00:03:13.720 And that's a concern for me, because I think it disrupts and distorts 00:03:13.720 --> 00:03:17.680 the way schools are teaching, the subjects they're choosing, and everything else. 00:03:18.220 --> 00:03:21.440 Okay, I'm going to ask you the $64,000 question in a way. 00:03:21.440 --> 00:03:30.820 How do standards compare to the, inverted commas, good old days that people always talk about? 00:03:31.600 --> 00:03:34.860 For me it's a nonsense, I'm sorry, it's a nonsense question. 00:03:35.060 --> 00:03:36.740 I just wouldn't even go there. 00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:52.471 I think it a waste of time to discuss standards for a very small group of 50 years ago who were taking them for a very particular purpose Now we got exams that half the population half the 18 are taking 00:03:53.991 --> 00:03:55.831 They're serving such different purposes. 00:03:55.971 --> 00:03:57.091 I would say don't go there. 00:03:57.691 --> 00:04:00.491 Where we ought to be going is saying are the exams we've got, 00:04:00.491 --> 00:04:04.511 are they fit for purpose now and will they be fit for purpose in the future? 00:04:05.231 --> 00:04:08.311 So are they fit for purpose? Will they be fit for purpose in the future? 00:04:08.531 --> 00:04:10.771 They're never perfectly fit for purpose. 00:04:11.191 --> 00:04:12.431 Some are better than others. 00:04:12.431 --> 00:04:23.071 And I think we have to keep facing forward about what skills are required and what's needed, rather than harking back to the good old days that weren't particularly good. 00:04:23.711 --> 00:04:40.991 So apart from holding back the government, if you had the ear of the new education minister in 10 days' time, what's the one positive, what's the one systemic thing you could say to them to do? 00:04:42.431 --> 00:04:49.811 Apart from saying dare you back off a bit, I think I'd want to say can we focus on what's 00:04:49.811 --> 00:04:55.271 being learned, can we get back to the classroom and the kind of informal assessment, can we 00:04:55.271 --> 00:05:02.871 move the light onto that, onto good teaching and back off the analysis of results and the 00:05:02.871 --> 00:05:03.871 like. 00:05:03.871 --> 00:05:04.811 Thank you very much.