WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.220 Good afternoon. It's a great pleasure to join you. 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:07.520 Though coming in as I have and joining the panel at the end of obviously what's been a stimulating morning, 00:00:07.660 --> 00:00:11.900 I realise that many of the most interesting questions will already have been posed, 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:14.500 some of the most interesting answers already explored. 00:00:14.680 --> 00:00:18.940 So it's within that context that I start out. 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.940 It's always a pleasure for me to participate in a Cambridge assessment event, 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:29.900 and it's always good this year to remind Oxford that it remains definitely second place to Cambridge overall. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:37.200 Though I know that Cambridge assessment takes no particular sides on that debate. 00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:43.300 What we're all trying to do, of course, in this country is raise overall standards of education. 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:48.180 And Nietzsche, who I spent too much time reading as a teenager, 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:51.060 but I'd forgotten what he'd said about education, 00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:55.840 but he said, in large states, public education will always be mediocre 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:08.866 for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad So that depressing insight whenever one goes off and people do my predecessor as the Select Committee Chairman was Barry Shearman 00:01:09.206 --> 00:01:13.266 and he would start to froth at the mouth if you mentioned Finland. 00:01:13.746 --> 00:01:15.306 He was sick of bloody Finland. 00:01:16.686 --> 00:01:20.886 And we recently, guess what, went to Finland to see that. 00:01:20.966 --> 00:01:22.786 And I think of Nietzsche when I think of Finland, 00:01:22.886 --> 00:01:24.646 because, of course, it's such a different state. 00:01:24.646 --> 00:01:34.786 Ours is a larger state, and we've got to nonetheless make sure that our public education rises above the mediocre. 00:01:35.306 --> 00:01:38.086 You will have heard learned points from the previous speakers. 00:01:38.206 --> 00:01:43.766 I thought I would just, as is my role on the Select Committee, ask some questions, 00:01:43.966 --> 00:01:46.406 most of which, doubtless you've already touched on. 00:01:46.646 --> 00:01:52.086 But is 14 the new 16 is the question, and I thought Mark's point was absolutely right. 00:01:52.086 --> 00:01:56.126 Of course, both 14 and 18 are the new 16 00:01:56.126 --> 00:01:58.666 for precisely the reasons he gave. 00:01:58.666 --> 00:02:13.191 And because of the raising of the participation age we looking at the potential for restructuring the way we provide our education So what it does mean is that we should reflect on some of the points I picked up 00:02:13.191 --> 00:02:19.011 just now. What do we do about those young people who are making the slowest 00:02:19.011 --> 00:02:22.131 progress of all? How are we going to pick up and make sure that we have a system 00:02:22.131 --> 00:02:24.971 that benefits them? What are we going to do about people with special educational 00:02:24.971 --> 00:02:28.211 needs? Of course we've had the the green paper, but how are we going to ensure we 00:02:28.211 --> 00:02:30.951 We have a system which picks up and promotes their well-being. 00:02:32.071 --> 00:02:36.831 Will changes affect the way the most academically able are taught? 00:02:37.191 --> 00:02:44.771 One assumes not, but it's impossible to know 00:02:44.771 --> 00:02:47.431 if one starts to make structural changes to the system overall. 00:02:48.131 --> 00:02:51.651 I think it was Klaus Moser who said that for hundreds of years, 00:02:52.111 --> 00:02:54.171 Britain has been brilliant at educating its elite. 00:02:54.931 --> 00:02:59.051 It's just that it hasn't been very good at dealing with the other 80%. 00:02:59.051 --> 00:03:01.891 And that remains, I think, a central focus for government. 00:03:02.231 --> 00:03:14.877 And certainly on the Select Committee my focus is to believe that successive ministers tend to have an understanding of empathy for and personal experience of the academic route following university and struggle 00:03:14.877 --> 00:03:22.357 with those people, the majority of the population, who don't follow that route. A lot of the debate 00:03:22.357 --> 00:03:28.977 is focused on whether 14 is an age at which students are intellectually, educationally, 00:03:28.977 --> 00:03:37.777 perhaps socially mature enough to make choices that may determine their future career. 00:03:37.777 --> 00:03:43.077 By being allowed that, are we listening to the young person's voice? 00:03:43.297 --> 00:03:48.237 Are we passing down from the experts or the guardians of the system, whether that be teachers 00:03:48.237 --> 00:03:49.217 or others, politicians? 00:03:49.657 --> 00:03:52.137 Are we listening to the voice of young people, as we often say we are? 00:03:52.297 --> 00:03:58.197 Or are we, in fact, trapping them potentially in pathways from which, despite the theory, 00:03:58.197 --> 00:04:00.277 and there's always been the theory that it should be possible, 00:04:00.417 --> 00:04:01.837 that we should have permeable systems 00:04:01.837 --> 00:04:05.537 that allow people who learn at different paces to move across, 00:04:05.877 --> 00:04:07.437 that they can't do so. 00:04:08.637 --> 00:04:10.937 So is 14 too young? 00:04:11.031 --> 00:04:19.051 to do that. And of course, different young people have different experiences, which has also been touched on. 00:04:19.191 --> 00:04:25.751 We tend this attitude of age, the single rate system. 00:04:25.931 --> 00:04:30.371 When we talk about our educational system, we talk about the different pathways as we have. 00:04:30.891 --> 00:04:37.891 My way of reminding myself to think and not forget this point is to think that you need lanes. 00:04:38.351 --> 00:04:40.691 Not only do you need a new road, if you like, 00:04:40.731 --> 00:04:43.991 you need lanes on that road, on that pathway, 00:04:43.991 --> 00:04:47.791 to allow people who learn at different paces to learn at different times. 00:04:48.211 --> 00:04:51.491 So whatever we do, we've got to have flexibility, 00:04:52.011 --> 00:04:54.071 both in allowing people to move at different paces 00:04:54.071 --> 00:04:58.191 and maximise permeability while accepting that the truth, 00:04:58.491 --> 00:04:59.891 I don't think there's any system in the world 00:04:59.891 --> 00:05:03.851 that allows true permeability between the different pathways. 00:05:03.931 --> 00:05:06.111 So there's a cost and a price for that. 00:05:06.111 --> 00:05:08.591 So how do we answer those questions? 00:05:08.591 --> 00:05:22.497 Well Winston Churchill once said however beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results And I think that something which in my office too little of that 00:05:23.357 --> 00:05:29.597 So when I was asked to speak today, I thought to myself, well, what does the research say? 00:05:30.557 --> 00:05:36.377 And as sitting on the select committee, I know that I always get excited when I have the top academics coming in, 00:05:36.377 --> 00:05:41.917 especially when I know they've just done a study particularly relevant to the inquiry we're conducting. 00:05:42.057 --> 00:05:46.797 I'm beside myself waiting to hear from the oracle what the answers are. 00:05:47.017 --> 00:05:51.497 And I don't mean to be rude to, I don't know how many of you are academics in the room, quite a lot really, 00:05:51.697 --> 00:05:54.517 but it's surprising how often you're left disappointed, isn't it? 00:05:54.657 --> 00:06:02.297 Because it's so hard to derive action, direct political decision-making, 00:06:02.437 --> 00:06:05.097 which is what we have to do in Parliament, on the basis of the evidence. 00:06:05.097 --> 00:06:07.257 So I'm forever being academic saying, 00:06:07.257 --> 00:06:08.677 why won't you just listen? 00:06:08.677 --> 00:06:11.037 Listen to the research, listen to the evidence. 00:06:11.037 --> 00:06:22.882 And we try We had a previous event I remember on how children learn We had a two and a half hour session there and we were still struggling at the end to work out in direct policy terms what do we do differently as a result 00:06:22.962 --> 00:06:24.722 But nonetheless, we should have a look at the research. 00:06:24.842 --> 00:06:34.062 Professor Jonathan Osborne from King's College London recently said that research suggests that by age 14 the majority of students have broadly determined their future career path. 00:06:34.062 --> 00:06:44.042 and if that is the case why then do we force them to continue on a purely generalist education 00:06:44.042 --> 00:06:47.702 when in fact what because they have a clear idea where they want to go 00:06:47.702 --> 00:06:55.822 we could unlock their enthusiasm focus and determination by allowing them to pursue pathways 00:06:55.822 --> 00:07:00.722 that will take them to where they want to go while ensuring as Alison Wolfe quite rightly said 00:07:00.722 --> 00:07:03.062 and I think there's universal consensus on that, 00:07:03.062 --> 00:07:06.102 if nothing else, that we do have a broad range 00:07:06.102 --> 00:07:08.022 of education as well. 00:07:08.022 --> 00:07:10.942 As I think has already been picked up on one of the questions, 00:07:10.942 --> 00:07:12.702 of course, we can say that in general terms, 00:07:12.702 --> 00:07:27.128 what we can then agree on precisely what that general education course what that course of study should look like In 2013 as we know the school leaving age will be increased to 18 00:07:27.508 --> 00:07:30.088 and that arbitrary cut-off point of 16, 00:07:30.508 --> 00:07:34.168 which I suppose was the following on from the school leaving certificate, 00:07:34.688 --> 00:07:37.088 will not be so significant. 00:07:37.708 --> 00:07:41.208 And it will, of course, allow us to shake up the exam system, 00:07:41.408 --> 00:07:43.848 which goes to the heart of OCR, of course. 00:07:44.328 --> 00:07:46.168 and indeed Cambridge Assessment. 00:07:46.648 --> 00:07:51.008 But I know many people, including within Cambridge Assessment, 00:07:51.388 --> 00:07:54.828 have been concerned at the number of GCSEs that people take. 00:07:55.328 --> 00:07:56.588 Are they taking too many? 00:07:56.908 --> 00:07:58.908 And I know from those in the maths community, 00:07:59.188 --> 00:08:03.908 they talk about an able mathematician being put forward to take maths early, 00:08:04.508 --> 00:08:06.328 then being neglected and carrying on. 00:08:06.328 --> 00:08:09.168 If they go to A-level and don't do maths to A-level, 00:08:09.268 --> 00:08:10.908 they find themselves, if they want to read economics, 00:08:10.908 --> 00:08:14.288 they find they are struggling to cope at university thereafter. 00:08:14.488 --> 00:08:21.968 So there is something deeply wrong with the way that GCSEs have implications 00:08:22.062 --> 00:08:24.642 now and that we do have the option to end it all together. 00:08:24.642 --> 00:08:29.642 Whether we move away from, if we do move away from GCSEs, 00:08:29.922 --> 00:08:34.102 which of course we could, and we looked at 14 as being a time 00:08:34.102 --> 00:08:39.102 for ending the traditional schooling, then again, 00:08:40.522 --> 00:08:43.622 rather than the GCSE type of external exam, 00:08:43.622 --> 00:08:48.622 we could be moving more to a system of a high school, 00:08:48.622 --> 00:08:55.802 a high school, what they would call them, the Americans would focus on as being an expectation 00:08:55.802 --> 00:08:59.662 that everyone should pass and that most people should come through rather than something in 00:08:59.662 --> 00:09:01.042 which people fail. 00:09:01.202 --> 00:09:08.562 We talked earlier, I always like enthusiasts, and the question, the gentleman from Reform 00:09:08.562 --> 00:09:12.722 was talking about the English baccalaureate and talking about schools in some of the poorest 00:09:12.722 --> 00:09:18.182 areas looking to move to 50, 60 percent from the current 3 or 5 percent in a few years' 00:09:18.182 --> 00:09:32.327 time I wish that was true I mean I not saying individual schools institutions aren hoping to do that But if you look at the numbers most children don get five good GCSEs even with all the equivalences so the idea that a much stricter regime in the 00:09:32.327 --> 00:09:35.827 English baccalaureate is going to leave to 50 to 60 percent of people getting 00:09:35.827 --> 00:09:39.207 the English baccalaureate at some of our poorest and most deprived schools I think 00:09:39.207 --> 00:09:45.447 is great there are outstanding heads there are outstanding schools I hope 00:09:45.447 --> 00:09:48.767 that some might be able to do it if we persist with the English baccalaureate 00:09:48.767 --> 00:09:50.987 but I don't think that's going to be the norm 00:09:50.987 --> 00:09:52.347 and in fact we are 00:09:52.347 --> 00:09:54.907 creating another artificial divide 00:09:54.907 --> 00:09:56.827 which in fact in academic, if you compare it with 00:09:56.827 --> 00:09:58.887 the five good GCSEs, it is in fact going to be 00:09:58.887 --> 00:10:01.247 a higher bar than the five good GCSEs 00:10:01.247 --> 00:10:03.227 it therefore means the borderline students 00:10:03.227 --> 00:10:05.187 who will get most of the attention and focus 00:10:05.187 --> 00:10:06.987 of the leaders in institutions 00:10:06.987 --> 00:10:09.127 will in fact be more academically able 00:10:09.127 --> 00:10:10.847 more likely, if you want to put it another way 00:10:10.847 --> 00:10:13.167 more likely to be middle class 00:10:13.167 --> 00:10:15.027 so what the English 00:10:15.027 --> 00:10:17.027 Baccalaureate, it could be argued 00:10:17.027 --> 00:10:20.107 We haven't produced our report yet, so I won't give any particular opinion. 00:10:20.107 --> 00:10:37.033 It could be argued that it in fact will lead to a greater focus of attention resource and input into middle class kids at the expense of working class kids because of the way that the accountability system is set up 00:10:37.293 --> 00:10:47.433 So I wish I shared the gentleman's enthusiasm there and belief in the English baccalaureate having the effect he suggested, but I think there are those who don't. 00:10:47.433 --> 00:10:50.433 I'm 00:10:50.433 --> 00:10:55.133 I'm very interested to hear from 00:10:55.133 --> 00:10:56.653 you rather than me because I 00:10:56.653 --> 00:10:58.893 mostly I just have questions 00:10:58.893 --> 00:11:01.413 if it makes sense for 00:11:01.413 --> 00:11:03.313 if it's possible that 00:11:03.313 --> 00:11:05.033 14 year olds do 00:11:05.033 --> 00:11:07.493 as the academics suggest 00:11:07.493 --> 00:11:09.353 are in a position to make 00:11:09.353 --> 00:11:11.413 choices about where they want to go 00:11:11.413 --> 00:11:13.213 going forward then 00:11:13.213 --> 00:11:15.533 should we and how 00:11:15.533 --> 00:11:18.533 how do we restructure what we do? 00:11:18.533 --> 00:11:21.533 And that means looking through not only the examination system, 00:11:21.533 --> 00:11:24.173 but more fundamentally our institutional 00:11:24.173 --> 00:11:35.679 and organizational structures If we think of schooling in the traditional sense of finishing at 14 what are the implications for middle schools What are the implications for capacity within FE colleges 00:11:35.859 --> 00:11:41.059 We've actually seen a reduction in 14 to 16-year-olds going into FE in the last few years. 00:11:41.119 --> 00:11:46.019 I think that's correct, although Alice Wolfe has suggested that she'd like to see more. 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.579 And personally, I'm a big enthusiast for further education colleges. 00:11:49.579 --> 00:11:52.139 I think they have so much to offer. 00:11:52.139 --> 00:11:57.719 they do such a good job in turning people around and providing a full rounded education it's not a 00:11:57.719 --> 00:12:03.939 narrow vocational education it can be a genuinely enriching education in FE so long as they have 00:12:03.939 --> 00:12:09.479 the resources and indeed the enrichment funds with which to do it but the implications then for FE 00:12:09.479 --> 00:12:15.919 if you do start to move to this change then what does it mean for sixth form colleges 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:21.839 are we going to see them expanding further coming down to 14 what about traditional 00:12:21.839 --> 00:12:24.399 schools with already small and struggling sixth forms. 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.019 What are the implications there? 00:12:26.019 --> 00:12:32.999 So even if we, sitting in this room, could draw up a new picture of what our education 00:12:33.092 --> 00:12:38.052 system would look like. We've got to move from where we are to that place with the existing 00:12:38.052 --> 00:12:47.052 institutions and existing budget lines and silos that we have in place. And it seems to 00:12:47.052 --> 00:12:51.192 me that this is something that we should take advantage of the raising of the participation 00:12:51.192 --> 00:13:00.592 age to think deeply about that. And listen to the research from elsewhere, where we know 00:13:00.592 --> 00:13:05.912 that there is specialisation coupled with a continuation of general education in other 00:13:05.912 --> 00:13:12.732 countries and that they appear to be better able to produce people who are able to contribute to 00:13:12.732 --> 00:13:16.252 the economy overall. So if we are going to be the, if we're going to have the green revolution, 00:13:16.772 --> 00:13:21.592 if we're going to have in near my constituency, we're hoping to have a Siemens, hopefully we'll 00:13:21.592 --> 00:13:26.232 turn a memorandum of understanding into a definite investment of hundreds of millions of pounds into 00:13:26.232 --> 00:13:55.058 an offshore wind facility there we hoping that others in the supply chain will come in behind and that the whole area will become a centre for renewable energy and investment there then we have got to be able to provide the technicians and the workforce with the broad education the soft skills and the technical aptitude to be able to deliver for those companies going forward 00:13:55.058 --> 00:14:12.058 So it was a pleasure for me to bring Ken Baker up to Hull, where we met with the Vice-Chancellor of Hull University, the Principal of East Riding College from the Councils East Riding and Hull together, and look at taking forward a UTC in Hull. 00:14:12.598 --> 00:14:18.498 And they are looking to come forward with a bid, I believe, in due course following that meeting. 00:14:18.498 --> 00:14:27.298 But is 14, the new 16, I think we have to take the opportunity, 00:14:27.298 --> 00:14:31.638 as I said, to look at the whole system overall and work out how 00:14:31.638 --> 00:14:48.064 we can ensure that we improve the current situation and reduce our expenditure on external exams and make sure that we give young people particularly those who are not the most academically able but make sure 00:14:48.064 --> 00:14:52.744 that we turn around our systems, that we not only educate our elite, but we educate everybody 00:14:52.744 --> 00:14:59.044 while ensuring that they can go on and contribute economically and also carry on educationally. 00:14:59.044 --> 00:15:05.384 One final point to touch on is that, as Alison Wolfe also picked up, 00:15:05.684 --> 00:15:10.784 that courses that don't take you to the position where you can go on to do what you thought you were doing 00:15:10.784 --> 00:15:15.104 when you set out on the course, as one of the questions put in earlier, has simply got to stop. 00:15:15.164 --> 00:15:17.564 And I know the government's committed to fixing that. 00:15:18.244 --> 00:15:20.684 Alison Wolfe was right to identify it. 00:15:21.064 --> 00:15:27.064 And we can, by focusing, by turning the spotlight away from our normal preoccupation 00:15:27.064 --> 00:15:29.164 with those areas of the education system 00:15:29.164 --> 00:15:31.604 which we in Parliament are most familiar 00:15:31.604 --> 00:15:33.204 onto the rest of the system, 00:15:33.204 --> 00:15:34.704 I'm sure we can improve it. 00:15:34.704 --> 00:15:49.530 We can create new and more navigable pathways and we can do so with marvelous lanes so that those who learn at different speeds at different times are able to progress Because whatever we do we cannot afford to have the large number of people currently 00:15:49.530 --> 00:15:55.570 in our society and our economy who are unable to engage, unable to contribute, 00:15:55.570 --> 00:16:02.490 which ruins their lives and creates a massive economic and social weight on the nation as a whole as well. 00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:07.590 And if you look at other countries, you look at Holland, they have massively reduced their number of NEETs. 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:19.670 They've looked at changing, it's not just about the education system, but they've looked at changing incentives for local government to make sure that they have a financial, a closer financial stake in the well-being of their young people. 00:16:20.170 --> 00:16:25.350 And Holland now has the lowest level of so-called NEETs in the OECD. 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:38.470 And so by focusing and working together and listening most of all to experts like yourselves in this room, I hope that across parties in Parliament overall and as a country overall that we can make a big difference. 00:16:38.870 --> 00:16:39.170 Thank you.