WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.720 Now, at last, is a chance for you to ask questions or to express views. 00:00:18.340 --> 00:00:26.720 And in particular, please do not feel that you need to agree that all the research is immediately applicable in your situation. 00:00:26.880 --> 00:00:29.240 It may well be, and I'm sure that much is. 00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:38.520 But if any of you have any doubts or worries, remember what Deb said, this is a safe place for you to raise them, because that's what we're here to do. 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:43.100 We're here to explore and develop and think of further issues we need to examine further. 00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:51.000 So I'd now like to invite, we've got a period now for discussion, after which there'll be a bit of a summary, 00:00:51.540 --> 00:00:57.000 but I'd like to invite anybody in the room who would like to raise a question, to raise their hand. 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:59.700 and just to remind you if you'd like to ask it 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:01.640 the microphone's coming to this gentleman 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:03.060 in the middle to start off 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:05.720 if you would like to ask your question 00:01:05.720 --> 00:01:07.320 in Chinese please do so 00:01:07.320 --> 00:01:09.540 and people with headsets will 00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:11.400 put on their headsets 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.540 and go to channel 2 if they want to hear it 00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:15.080 in English. Thank you sir. 00:01:15.320 --> 00:01:17.040 Can I do it in English? 00:01:17.580 --> 00:01:19.860 You're allowed to do it in English 00:01:19.860 --> 00:01:21.620 yes. Tim Hawkins 00:01:21.620 --> 00:01:23.840 Shanghai Experimental School 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:25.940 we are primarily 00:01:25.938 --> 00:01:34.618 an ITCSE and A-level school. Now, thank you very much for your presentations. I 100% agree 00:01:34.618 --> 00:01:41.838 with encouraging students to develop their own learning strategies, and I agree with 00:01:41.838 --> 00:01:48.438 almost all of what you've said about the way teachers should support that. Now, I would 00:01:48.438 --> 00:01:54.838 expect, and maybe you would agree or you wouldn't agree, that different students would progress 00:01:54.838 --> 00:01:56.478 at different paces 00:01:56.478 --> 00:01:58.538 as a result particularly 00:01:58.538 --> 00:02:00.558 of developing their own learning strategies. 00:02:02.018 --> 00:02:03.038 Now in China 00:02:03.038 --> 00:02:05.558 the truth is 00:02:05.558 --> 00:02:07.438 we like to see 00:02:07.438 --> 00:02:08.998 A-level results 00:02:08.998 --> 00:02:11.278 and parents like to see 00:02:11.278 --> 00:02:13.498 A-level results that can get their 00:02:13.498 --> 00:02:15.498 sons and daughters 00:02:15.498 --> 00:02:17.518 into Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, 00:02:17.718 --> 00:02:19.158 UCL, Warwick, Harvard, 00:02:19.458 --> 00:02:20.338 Toronto, wherever. 00:02:22.338 --> 00:02:23.358 I wonder 00:02:23.358 --> 00:02:33.118 if the progress of individual students in an A-level context, different speeds, is consistent 00:02:33.118 --> 00:02:44.578 with Cambridge's, Cambridge Assessments' future policy of abolishing ASs, and only training 00:02:44.578 --> 00:02:51.878 linear straight to A-level. I would have thought, if anything, we would need more formal steps. 00:02:51.877 --> 00:02:54.537 towards A-level, and particularly 00:02:54.537 --> 00:02:56.917 would not want to abolish ASs. 00:02:59.377 --> 00:03:02.377 I'm going to take the floor for answering a little bit, if I may, 00:03:02.377 --> 00:03:06.457 Deb, about ASs and A-levels, just to say 00:03:06.457 --> 00:03:10.437 for the benefit of the audience, there is two issues here. One is what is going 00:03:10.437 --> 00:03:14.377 to happen to those exams in England, and you will have read stuff 00:03:14.377 --> 00:03:18.057 in the newspapers about that. And the government's 00:03:18.057 --> 00:03:21.857 intention there is not to abolish ASs, but to make them a separate stand-alone 00:03:21.857 --> 00:03:26.057 qualification in England, but not to have them as a stepping stone to A-level. 00:03:26.597 --> 00:03:30.017 That may or may not be a good idea, but the next question is 00:03:30.017 --> 00:03:33.917 what's going to happen in the international examinations, and that is a separate 00:03:33.917 --> 00:03:37.377 question which is not determined by the government policies. 00:03:38.837 --> 00:03:41.917 So there's issues in favour of 00:03:41.917 --> 00:03:46.137 retaining an assessment such 00:03:46.137 --> 00:03:50.117 as an AS, which is a clear stepping stone and gives feedback 00:03:50.117 --> 00:03:51.737 and structured external evidence, 00:03:52.237 --> 00:03:53.757 and there's arguments against it 00:03:53.757 --> 00:03:55.897 that it means there's too much testing 00:03:55.897 --> 00:03:58.917 in the time that the student is studying for the A level. 00:03:59.637 --> 00:04:01.857 Now, what I think I'm going to do 00:04:01.857 --> 00:04:05.497 is to leave that issue to one very important side 00:04:05.497 --> 00:04:07.897 that Tim and the rest of us can discuss further. 00:04:08.457 --> 00:04:10.157 But what I'd like to ask Deb, 00:04:10.217 --> 00:04:11.637 just to broaden it a little bit, 00:04:12.277 --> 00:04:14.197 is whether she feels that, 00:04:14.517 --> 00:04:17.817 having done international A... 00:04:17.815 --> 00:04:25.235 working across the board, and what you say about teaching to tests being not improving 00:04:25.235 --> 00:04:31.375 learning of itself, whether there's anything that the exam system can do to support good 00:04:31.375 --> 00:04:31.835 teaching. 00:04:32.295 --> 00:04:37.995 Given that one thing I wanted to say from my experience in Asia is that parents do regard 00:04:37.995 --> 00:04:43.515 exam outcomes as very important, and they're not doing that out of vindictiveness. 00:04:43.735 --> 00:04:47.795 It's because they want their child to get the best possible start in life, and some exam 00:04:47.795 --> 00:04:49.155 are high stakes for that. 00:04:49.715 --> 00:04:51.095 And we have to recognise that. 00:04:51.195 --> 00:04:53.695 But are there ways in which the exam system, 00:04:53.795 --> 00:04:55.315 rather than just being a common enemy, 00:04:55.735 --> 00:04:58.635 can actually be better to support 00:04:58.635 --> 00:05:00.835 the best kind of teaching and learning? 00:05:02.915 --> 00:05:03.595 Thanks, Isabel. 00:05:03.675 --> 00:05:06.055 That's a really, really good question. 00:05:06.355 --> 00:05:08.635 And I think I can probably answer it in other ways. 00:05:08.735 --> 00:05:09.975 And a lot of people in the room 00:05:09.975 --> 00:05:11.715 have a lot of ideas on it as well. 00:05:12.335 --> 00:05:14.715 I think one of the things that was, 00:05:15.755 --> 00:05:17.535 may not have been obvious in the video, 00:05:17.535 --> 00:05:22.835 you saw this morning, and I know that that video was of younger children, but I spoke 00:05:22.835 --> 00:05:28.155 to somebody at lunchtime about this as well. Assessment and assessment policies and practices 00:05:28.155 --> 00:05:33.835 was a by-product of really good teaching and learning in those schools. It was not the 00:05:33.835 --> 00:05:39.595 focus. The focus was on really good teaching and learning, and in Sarah's school, good 00:05:39.595 --> 00:05:43.355 teaching and learning means that of course there's going to be assessment of learners 00:05:43.355 --> 00:05:43.755 on the way. 00:05:43.754 --> 00:05:50.294 through but it is not going to be the focus so that's kind of one part of the answer I guess the 00:05:50.294 --> 00:05:55.914 other part really is how can we get in front of the assessments and it's been a lot of the work 00:05:55.914 --> 00:06:00.594 that we've been doing is looking at how can we actually if we're really wanting to get really 00:06:00.594 --> 00:06:06.074 good assessment results how can we use the information and the knowledge of the assessments 00:06:06.074 --> 00:06:09.914 in a formative way to teach, you know, 00:06:10.494 --> 00:06:12.774 to be performing a teaching practice. 00:06:13.814 --> 00:06:17.214 And that's a lot of the work that we do. 00:06:17.354 --> 00:06:19.814 It's getting ahead of them a little bit too. 00:06:19.954 --> 00:06:22.534 So I don't know if that's really, really helped, 00:06:23.454 --> 00:06:25.174 but I'm happy to answer more questions. 00:06:25.174 --> 00:06:29.134 I don't know, Leanne, if you've got an answer or something to add. 00:06:30.094 --> 00:06:31.094 That's your assessment. 00:06:31.094 --> 00:06:38.634 I'd just like to add that Cambridge, as you know, is an assessment organisation, 00:06:38.914 --> 00:06:42.174 but we've deliberately done some of these seminars, these horizons, 00:06:42.174 --> 00:06:46.294 not just about assessment, but about education and about pedagogy. 00:06:47.114 --> 00:06:49.714 The next one in the scene, as you'll hear about that at the end, 00:06:49.794 --> 00:06:53.354 is about school-based assessment and the whole added, 00:06:53.734 --> 00:06:56.754 the new significance of that in the Asian context, 00:06:57.074 --> 00:07:00.374 and there'll be a chance to build, to bring some of those things back again. 00:07:01.094 --> 00:07:07.534 But I think there is a question for all of us about how much the kind of structured feedback 00:07:07.534 --> 00:07:09.694 that an external exam gives. 00:07:09.692 --> 00:07:16.072 however well it's designed, whether how much of that is good to support the kind of development 00:07:16.072 --> 00:07:20.652 that Deb has described and how much of it becomes just a burden or a chase. 00:07:21.212 --> 00:07:28.592 In England, there has been criticism that students in some systems are sitting exams every three months. 00:07:28.592 --> 00:07:32.392 They're sitting formal exams and it just becomes a procession of examinations. 00:07:33.272 --> 00:07:39.032 Cambridge tries to develop assessment material that supports and reflects and recognises the best learning, 00:07:39.032 --> 00:07:41.772 but that doesn't totally answer your question 00:07:41.772 --> 00:07:43.572 the question is the role of it in the school 00:07:43.572 --> 00:07:45.472 life and in the child's life 00:07:45.472 --> 00:07:47.712 and in the parents' perceptions as well 00:07:47.712 --> 00:07:49.472 so there's some big issues there 00:07:49.472 --> 00:07:50.512 about examinations 00:07:50.512 --> 00:07:53.252 another question please 00:07:53.252 --> 00:07:57.152 yes 00:07:57.152 --> 00:07:58.912 the gentleman over there 00:07:58.912 --> 00:08:01.372 to whom a microphone is about to arrive 00:08:01.372 --> 00:08:03.392 there we are, thank you 00:08:03.392 --> 00:08:03.812 thank you 00:08:03.812 --> 00:08:07.492 I'm very 00:08:07.492 --> 00:08:09.652 interested in the idea that calculators 00:08:09.652 --> 00:08:11.732 seem not to be very effective. 00:08:12.332 --> 00:08:13.292 I actually 00:08:13.292 --> 00:08:15.512 personally agree with that. I don't like using 00:08:15.512 --> 00:08:17.452 them, but the fact is they become a standard 00:08:17.452 --> 00:08:18.532 part of the curriculum. 00:08:19.532 --> 00:08:21.112 And that is partly driven 00:08:21.112 --> 00:08:22.252 by assessment. 00:08:24.172 --> 00:08:25.492 And I guess my question 00:08:25.492 --> 00:08:27.412 which is, I don't know if there's an answer to this, 00:08:27.492 --> 00:08:29.492 but what is a math teacher to do 00:08:29.492 --> 00:08:31.492 when the 00:08:31.492 --> 00:08:33.452 curriculum and the assessments 00:08:33.452 --> 00:08:35.632 require the use of calculators, but in fact 00:08:35.631 --> 00:08:37.171 they're shown not to be very effective. 00:08:37.771 --> 00:08:40.731 And I'm curious if there's any kind of general direction 00:08:40.731 --> 00:08:42.591 to move away from calculators. 00:08:42.691 --> 00:08:45.711 I haven't seen anything like that in my experience teaching. 00:08:48.411 --> 00:08:49.731 Another really good question, 00:08:49.831 --> 00:08:52.151 and I think we need to be really mindful of the fact 00:08:52.151 --> 00:08:56.111 that some of the influences that we see, 00:08:56.231 --> 00:08:58.491 just because they've got a lower effect size, 00:08:58.711 --> 00:09:00.491 doesn't mean that they're not important. 00:09:01.291 --> 00:09:04.951 Some things that sit on the lower end of the effect size chart 00:09:04.951 --> 00:09:09.271 are actually very inexpensive and very quick to administer. 00:09:09.911 --> 00:09:12.731 And I think the use of calculators is one of those. 00:09:12.991 --> 00:09:15.151 If most of our students have got calculators 00:09:15.151 --> 00:09:17.471 and it's not going to take a lot of effort and energy 00:09:17.471 --> 00:09:20.451 to use them in tests and assessments and pieces of work, 00:09:20.651 --> 00:09:21.391 then use them. 00:09:21.991 --> 00:09:24.351 Because 0.24 is still 0.24. 00:09:25.151 --> 00:09:27.771 So we mustn't get too wedded to this notion 00:09:27.771 --> 00:09:30.291 that just because it's below the 0.4, it's useless. 00:09:30.391 --> 00:09:30.911 It's not. 00:09:31.671 --> 00:09:34.931 It's actually a very quick and very probably inexpensive way 00:09:34.931 --> 00:09:35.811 to get gains. 00:09:37.991 --> 00:09:43.551 If I can add to that, there are examples both in the United States 00:09:43.551 --> 00:09:47.771 and in the United Kingdom of the use of calculators becoming itself 00:09:47.771 --> 00:09:53.091 a kind of educational political issue beyond its significance. 00:09:54.111 --> 00:09:57.851 And, for example, in England, ministers have made a point 00:09:57.851 --> 00:10:01.571 of removing the use of calculators because they have a kind 00:10:01.569 --> 00:10:08.449 of vision of improving mental arithmetic skills which they believe have been diminished by too 00:10:08.449 --> 00:10:13.969 much use of calculators and that is linked with a number of other feelings about the kinds of 00:10:13.969 --> 00:10:18.929 things that children used to be able to do that they can't allegedly do now and whether or not 00:10:18.929 --> 00:10:27.009 that is right i think what is coming out of today's discussion is that there is evidence on a lot of 00:10:27.009 --> 00:10:32.109 these matters not needing to be done from scratch but there is some evidence 00:10:32.109 --> 00:10:36.729 there and at least we can try to get help to ask well let's see what the 00:10:36.729 --> 00:10:41.109 evidence says before we jump to one of the ideological positions on that 00:10:41.109 --> 00:10:45.189 because the poor students are going to be frantically doing mental arithmetic 00:10:45.189 --> 00:10:48.909 with one lot of ministers and then the next lot will give them all calculators 00:10:48.909 --> 00:10:53.649 on the first day or something like that and they'll be not helped either way so 00:10:53.649 --> 00:10:59.529 So I think as an education community, there's a responsibility in us to look at evidence. 00:10:59.529 --> 00:11:03.829 And that's certainly one thing I've learned from today's discussion. 00:11:04.349 --> 00:11:06.109 Okay, can I say a few more? 00:11:06.149 --> 00:11:06.449 Yes. 00:11:07.549 --> 00:11:10.669 In the front of the table, sorry, I'll come back to you in a minute. 00:11:10.989 --> 00:11:11.369 No, no, sorry. 00:11:11.609 --> 00:11:14.709 Hi, Manu from the Institute of Education in Singapore. 00:11:14.889 --> 00:11:16.989 Thank you, Deborah, for a fantastic presentation. 00:11:17.749 --> 00:11:19.149 There's a ton to think about. 00:11:19.149 --> 00:11:24.229 and before we even jump into the implications 00:11:24.229 --> 00:11:27.509 of what these findings are suggesting, 00:11:27.508 --> 00:11:29.408 for practice and for policy makers. 00:11:30.368 --> 00:11:32.668 I'm still struggling with what it means. 00:11:33.908 --> 00:11:35.028 Multiple levels. 00:11:36.468 --> 00:11:38.628 I'm going to be much like your friend from London 00:11:38.628 --> 00:11:41.008 who was sceptical about that school. 00:11:41.928 --> 00:11:44.048 So the first thing is a definitional issue. 00:11:44.668 --> 00:11:49.408 Schooling, education, teaching are very value-laden activities, 00:11:49.508 --> 00:11:50.468 situated activities. 00:11:50.468 --> 00:11:54.228 So when you say you're going to tell them like homework or feedback 00:11:54.228 --> 00:11:57.628 or professional development or worked examples. 00:11:57.928 --> 00:12:00.708 These mean very different things in different contexts. 00:12:01.268 --> 00:12:06.708 And a function of what meta-analyses does is aggregates all of these into some, 00:12:06.888 --> 00:12:08.568 and then we do not know what this means. 00:12:08.668 --> 00:12:13.008 So before you can even derive implications from how more homework is good or bad, 00:12:13.528 --> 00:12:17.088 we don't quite know what this aggregated thing looks like, 00:12:18.008 --> 00:12:20.708 especially what meaning it has across different contexts. 00:12:20.708 --> 00:12:23.868 So first is a definitional issue that I'm struggling with. 00:12:23.868 --> 00:12:25.708 What do these factors mean, really? 00:12:26.588 --> 00:12:30.028 Second is a causal attribution. 00:12:30.768 --> 00:12:34.268 You know, all these factors with the different effect sizes. 00:12:35.028 --> 00:12:39.088 If you do this, then you're likely to get an effect size or an improvement. 00:12:39.248 --> 00:12:41.208 I don't think the analysis suggests that. 00:12:41.368 --> 00:12:42.728 At best, these are associations, 00:12:43.568 --> 00:12:48.448 because not all that is sampled are comparative experimental studies. 00:12:49.208 --> 00:12:50.688 And so it's very hard. 00:12:51.068 --> 00:12:53.448 I worry that if you go away from this, 00:12:53.446 --> 00:12:57.586 seminar thinking that if I were to do this I'll get this effect size that's a 00:12:57.586 --> 00:13:02.266 causal claim whereas at best these are correlational associations and I think 00:13:02.266 --> 00:13:05.926 we need to be mindful along with the different contexts within which these 00:13:05.926 --> 00:13:12.126 studies have been aggregated across and finally is the attribution so when 00:13:12.126 --> 00:13:15.466 somebody says teacher content knowledge is not important but does not produce so 00:13:15.466 --> 00:13:20.206 much effect at the same time saying feedback has a strong effect or feedback 00:13:20.206 --> 00:13:23.566 is in part dependent on teacher content knowledge 00:13:23.566 --> 00:13:25.606 and pedagogical content knowledge. 00:13:26.026 --> 00:13:27.386 And if the teacher gives good feedback, 00:13:27.746 --> 00:13:29.526 then you've got the students more engaged 00:13:29.526 --> 00:13:30.886 and the relationships are better. 00:13:31.366 --> 00:13:34.946 So a lot of these factors probably recruit other factors. 00:13:36.206 --> 00:13:39.946 And so, again, it goes back into what is the causal attribution? 00:13:39.946 --> 00:13:42.046 I don't think we can answer that question. 00:13:42.246 --> 00:13:45.226 Much as important as this work is for us 00:13:45.226 --> 00:13:46.806 to think about what is important, 00:13:47.326 --> 00:13:50.106 I worry that we're taking, we're overgeneralizing 00:13:50.106 --> 00:13:52.286 over-interpreting the analysis 00:13:52.286 --> 00:13:54.046 even though it comes from a huge and 00:13:54.046 --> 00:13:56.286 fantastic data set and analysis. 00:13:57.106 --> 00:13:57.306 So 00:13:57.306 --> 00:14:00.426 those three levels, the definitional issues, 00:14:00.666 --> 00:14:02.446 the attribution 00:14:02.446 --> 00:14:03.386 of effects 00:14:03.386 --> 00:14:05.826 and the interacting factors. 00:14:06.426 --> 00:14:07.946 Could you just respond and 00:14:07.946 --> 00:14:09.826 perhaps bring us down to earth a little bit 00:14:09.826 --> 00:14:12.106 before we jump into some implication 00:14:12.106 --> 00:14:13.966 and people go away thinking, oh we should do this 00:14:13.966 --> 00:14:14.626 or we should do that. 00:14:16.006 --> 00:14:18.226 I would hope 00:14:18.226 --> 00:14:19.386 that I 00:14:19.385 --> 00:14:21.505 have presented today 00:14:21.505 --> 00:14:23.425 and what I spoke about 00:14:23.425 --> 00:14:24.745 that 00:14:24.745 --> 00:14:27.325 effect 00:14:27.325 --> 00:14:29.405 sizes and the measurement that's been 00:14:29.405 --> 00:14:31.485 used, I summarise 20 years 00:14:31.485 --> 00:14:32.645 of work in an hour 00:14:32.645 --> 00:14:35.185 or a little over an hour 00:14:35.185 --> 00:14:37.385 so obviously there's a huge 00:14:37.385 --> 00:14:39.365 level of depth and information 00:14:39.365 --> 00:14:41.365 that sits in behind the effect 00:14:41.365 --> 00:14:43.585 sizes which is why I invited 00:14:43.585 --> 00:14:45.405 you to go back to the 00:14:45.405 --> 00:14:47.425 original research if there's something that 00:14:47.425 --> 00:14:53.645 in particular interest you, and also signalled that a lot of the research gets hijacked, 00:14:53.745 --> 00:14:55.265 if you like, for political purposes. 00:14:55.925 --> 00:15:02.085 So yes, I agree, and John agrees too, that there is certainly a danger in simplifying 00:15:02.085 --> 00:15:03.505 the research. 00:15:04.145 --> 00:15:12.345 However, it does tell a story, and it's the story that's wrapped around the research findings 00:15:12.345 --> 00:15:14.365 that we really focus on. 00:15:14.365 --> 00:15:22.285 We would never suggest that people need to tick off the top ten things because we know that that's not what it's about. 00:15:22.905 --> 00:15:36.465 But it's actually changing the way that we think about teaching and learning and pulling those common ideas together around what quality teaching might be, what it means to have related, you know, all of those things together. 00:15:36.465 --> 00:15:39.605 So I agree, I mean, everything you said is correct. 00:15:39.605 --> 00:15:45.325 and yes we have to read it carefully and we must 00:15:45.323 --> 00:15:51.843 be careful not to take things out of context. Effect sizes and the Hattie research is an 00:15:51.843 --> 00:15:58.983 invitation to have a discussion and to put it into your context. And it's an invitation 00:15:58.983 --> 00:16:06.843 for you to go deeper. What we have done though as a team and working with John is to pull 00:16:06.843 --> 00:16:12.523 out, if you like, what I showed at the end which is those five key strands of visible 00:16:12.523 --> 00:16:18.103 learning. So we have synthesised, if you like, all of the key messages out of the research 00:16:18.103 --> 00:16:24.323 and we've said we need to consider the topic of visible learners. We need to think about 00:16:24.323 --> 00:16:28.803 the whole role of inspired and passionate teachers and what that means. And that means 00:16:28.803 --> 00:16:34.743 many things in many different countries and different processes for doing that. We need 00:16:34.743 --> 00:16:41.323 to look at whether or not we know our impact on students. We need to know if we are a visible 00:16:41.323 --> 00:16:47.543 learning school and we need to give and receive effective feedback. Yes, they've all got huge 00:16:47.543 --> 00:16:52.783 levels of depth that sit underneath them, which is why we have worked as a team in the 00:16:52.783 --> 00:16:59.303 visible learning team to really start to unpick that for schools. So we run a process and 00:16:59.303 --> 00:17:05.643 a programme where we take schools through looking really deeply into those aspects of the research 00:17:05.643 --> 00:17:11.263 and then applying it as a process to their school and asking the questions, what does 00:17:11.262 --> 00:17:16.802 this look like in my school? Is this important for my school? So we haven't got the answers, 00:17:17.282 --> 00:17:24.542 we've got the questions. And I know if John were here, he would say that the research 00:17:24.542 --> 00:17:31.202 evidence itself is vast enough to be able to pull out the key themes that we think make 00:17:31.202 --> 00:17:36.502 a really convincing, and we know the evidence says makes a really convincing story. So I 00:17:36.502 --> 00:17:41.722 don't know if that's helped but I share your concerns we all share your concerns in the work 00:17:41.722 --> 00:17:48.862 that we do and believe they're really valid. I'd just like to add a little bit to invite Leanne to 00:17:48.862 --> 00:17:55.382 come in because she wanted to say something about calculators as well. One of the reasons we have 00:17:55.382 --> 00:18:01.962 had today's discussion is rather that we in Cambridge wanted to encourage us all to ask the 00:18:01.962 --> 00:18:04.022 questions that Manu has raised 00:18:04.022 --> 00:18:05.562 in the way that Deb suggested. 00:18:06.542 --> 00:18:07.902 If you take homework, which has 00:18:07.902 --> 00:18:09.422 come up several times today, 00:18:10.922 --> 00:18:14.002 is what is meant by 00:18:14.002 --> 00:18:15.262 homework and the whole 00:18:15.262 --> 00:18:17.742 baggage that comes with that word, 00:18:17.802 --> 00:18:19.902 is it the same in our context as 00:18:19.902 --> 00:18:21.802 in America and the places that the research 00:18:21.802 --> 00:18:23.562 was done in, or is it different? 00:18:23.682 --> 00:18:26.042 Or are some bits similar and some bits 00:18:26.042 --> 00:18:27.762 different? The kind of homework 00:18:27.762 --> 00:18:29.762 tasks that Lee Yen was 00:18:29.762 --> 00:18:33.362 describing they're very different to the kind of task they're set in some parts 00:18:33.362 --> 00:18:37.202 of the United States does that matter does that affect it it's asking the 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.260 question. So what I take Deb as saying 00:18:39.260 --> 00:18:41.400 to us is, the Western research 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.180 that we've reported has said this about 00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:45.300 homework, as understood 00:18:45.300 --> 00:18:46.440 in those countries, 00:18:47.560 --> 00:18:49.360 what do you think about it 00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:51.240 in your setting, given 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.700 that evidence from there? 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.100 And the answer may be that it means something rather 00:18:55.100 --> 00:18:57.060 different, or that parents have different 00:18:57.060 --> 00:18:58.960 expectations or something, but it 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.000 starts us thinking, and it starts 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.100 asking questions, and it encourages 00:19:03.100 --> 00:19:05.040 us to look at the 00:19:05.040 --> 00:19:07.160 evidence. And I think I would say 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.000 that if there is evidence, including in research written in other languages, 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:16.900 which suggests different findings about homework as understood in Singapore 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:20.780 or in China or somewhere, I think that we would be interested to know 00:19:20.780 --> 00:19:24.080 and I'm sure that Deb and John Hattie would be interested to know as well. 00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:27.320 So it's the beginning of the discussion rather than saying 00:19:27.320 --> 00:19:28.940 these are the answers and there you are. 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:30.340 But that's my comments. 00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:32.080 Now, Lien, you've been very patient. 00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:40.080 As for the second question, just now I want to say a few words about the calculator problem. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:48.080 And naturally my major is not maths and I'm an English teacher, but I think I do want to make a suggestion. 00:19:48.080 --> 00:19:55.080 I think we need to compromise sometimes. On the one hand we have to follow the national curriculum standard, 00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:58.180 and on the other hand, I think it's quite important 00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.320 for the teachers to tell the students 00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:03.140 how the results come out, you know? 00:20:03.138 --> 00:20:17.838 But now in current practice, most of the teachers, they just spend much time to tell the student how to use the machine rather than tell them or explain the reasons about how the results come out. 00:20:17.958 --> 00:20:21.458 So sometimes compromising is very important, I think. 00:20:23.318 --> 00:20:24.098 Thank you. 00:20:24.818 --> 00:20:26.458 Thank you. 00:20:26.538 --> 00:20:30.118 There's a question from the back coming from the web. 00:20:30.118 --> 00:20:32.638 And then there's a gentleman there who will be on after that. 00:20:32.638 --> 00:20:34.198 So, no, or... 00:20:34.198 --> 00:20:34.418 Yes. 00:20:35.158 --> 00:20:35.558 Salisa. 00:20:35.718 --> 00:20:38.298 A question from an online participant, Emily So. 00:20:38.918 --> 00:20:42.478 Her question is, I have seen how organisational culture 00:20:42.478 --> 00:20:44.918 can develop the conditions necessary 00:20:44.918 --> 00:20:46.778 to make visible learning a reality. 00:20:47.458 --> 00:20:50.778 What works for one may not necessarily work for another. 00:20:51.318 --> 00:20:53.998 What the research seems to show is how crucial 00:20:53.998 --> 00:20:56.718 passionate teachers are to the entire process. 00:20:57.278 --> 00:20:59.558 How can we have more passionate teachers? 00:20:59.558 --> 00:21:02.458 How can we make sure they become the critical mass 00:21:02.458 --> 00:21:04.098 in our respective schools. 00:21:04.998 --> 00:21:06.258 Thank you. I think that's 00:21:06.258 --> 00:21:08.458 the question is the nub 00:21:08.458 --> 00:21:09.658 of the whole day. So 00:21:09.658 --> 00:21:12.378 how can we have more passionate teachers 00:21:12.378 --> 00:21:14.518 and the effect of the culture, the school 00:21:14.518 --> 00:21:16.498 we saw in the video, everything about 00:21:16.498 --> 00:21:18.478 the school was buzzing about what you 00:21:18.478 --> 00:21:20.478 were talking about. So how can we create more 00:21:20.478 --> 00:21:21.918 passionate teaching? 00:21:24.038 --> 00:21:24.478 Gosh, 00:21:24.558 --> 00:21:26.178 if I had the answer to that, I'd be very 00:21:26.178 --> 00:21:27.158 wealthy, wouldn't I? 00:21:28.578 --> 00:21:29.078 Um, 00:21:29.077 --> 00:21:36.217 I certainly agree with the first part of the question, which is around the organisational culture and it being very different. 00:21:36.457 --> 00:21:44.377 And I said this morning in my presentation that we're working with a very large organisation at one of the territories in Australia 00:21:44.377 --> 00:21:52.937 and putting a visible learning lens in terms of school review and change and system reform across that education spectrum. 00:21:53.517 --> 00:21:59.737 So that's a very made-to-measure piece of work based on the visible learning work. 00:22:00.237 --> 00:22:03.177 So it is very important that we take that into account. 00:22:03.577 --> 00:22:05.917 Likewise, I'm working in Sweden at the moment, 00:22:06.297 --> 00:22:10.597 and the organisational culture there and the education culture is quite different. 00:22:10.597 --> 00:22:13.097 I mean, I said this morning they have no word for learner, 00:22:13.297 --> 00:22:17.937 so they kind of, you know, and I understand here visible was not a word that was easily translated. 00:22:18.517 --> 00:22:20.817 So words can be very slippery creatures, 00:22:20.817 --> 00:22:23.657 and we have to be very careful about how we use them. 00:22:23.737 --> 00:22:26.057 But the context is very, very important. 00:22:27.777 --> 00:22:32.517 We would like to think, and we believe that certainly some of the systems 00:22:32.517 --> 00:22:36.917 and processes we've put around our work is actually helping teachers 00:22:36.917 --> 00:22:42.237 to become more aware of where the opportunities are for excellence 00:22:42.237 --> 00:22:45.597 and what their role is in those opportunities. 00:22:45.897 --> 00:22:49.717 So some teachers will do it by themselves because they're driven to success anyway 00:22:49.717 --> 00:22:55.017 and others need a helping hand through it and need to be challenged and need to be 00:22:55.015 --> 00:23:00.455 see and need to see themselves as learners in a learning community and that is a real focus of 00:23:00.455 --> 00:23:06.415 our work it's for us as teachers to see and all of us to see ourselves as learners so you know I 00:23:06.415 --> 00:23:11.595 see varying things around the world in terms of how we actually are motivating our teachers to 00:23:11.595 --> 00:23:17.155 to greater heights and I see all sorts of tools that places are using but it's having the 00:23:17.155 --> 00:23:22.475 discussions and it's having really strong leaders in schools that lead those discussions because 00:23:22.475 --> 00:23:28.255 as leaders in the school, you are, the teachers are your classroom, if you like. So how can 00:23:28.255 --> 00:23:33.475 you make that happen and really driving that notion of success? So, you know, we're working 00:23:33.475 --> 00:23:38.655 certainly in that space and I know a lot of you are too, but, you know, it's, you know, 00:23:38.795 --> 00:23:44.735 what did I hear once said? Teachers don't mind change, they just don't like to be changed. 00:23:44.735 --> 00:23:47.255 do you see the difference 00:23:47.255 --> 00:23:49.015 so it is a challenge 00:23:49.015 --> 00:23:51.895 and an exciting one 00:23:51.895 --> 00:23:53.175 and one that we certainly 00:23:53.175 --> 00:23:55.035 are having a lot of success with 00:23:55.035 --> 00:24:00.075 and for those who are policy makers 00:24:00.075 --> 00:24:01.695 some of the questions that 00:24:01.695 --> 00:24:02.895 are sometimes posed 00:24:02.895 --> 00:24:04.395 in relation to 00:24:04.395 --> 00:24:06.095 is what as a policy maker 00:24:06.095 --> 00:24:07.335 or as an authority 00:24:07.335 --> 00:24:10.515 can you do to leave space 00:24:10.515 --> 00:24:12.495 for passionate teaching to happen 00:24:12.495 --> 00:24:14.655 because even if you can't create it 00:24:14.655 --> 00:24:15.575 by pressing a button. 00:24:16.515 --> 00:24:19.295 You can put barriers in the way 00:24:19.295 --> 00:24:20.955 by things that you threaten 00:24:20.954 --> 00:24:27.614 grow at teachers and we can all do that, especially when we're anxious to support authorities 00:24:27.614 --> 00:24:33.154 that want to make differences quickly so they put in lots of new things and the real question 00:24:33.154 --> 00:24:39.234 is are we allowing passionate teaching to happen and that is a very challenging question 00:24:39.234 --> 00:24:44.834 for all of us. It's the same for those of us who design examinations and curricula and 00:24:44.834 --> 00:24:50.234 that we somehow have to make sure that we're supporting the best teaching and learning and 00:24:50.234 --> 00:24:52.854 not making our changes and ending themselves. 00:24:53.394 --> 00:24:54.474 Sorry, can I just... 00:24:54.474 --> 00:24:56.134 Thanks, that's really true. 00:24:56.274 --> 00:24:58.134 And you could see in that video this morning 00:24:58.134 --> 00:25:01.434 the teachers sitting around and discussing teaching and learning. 00:25:01.614 --> 00:25:06.274 Now, it's giving teachers the time to do that, to collaborate. 00:25:06.394 --> 00:25:08.734 If we say collaboration is one of the key things, 00:25:09.094 --> 00:25:12.234 then we need to give teachers the time and the space to do that. 00:25:12.314 --> 00:25:14.814 So when we talk about having a visible learning school, 00:25:15.274 --> 00:25:17.314 you can call it anything you like, 00:25:17.314 --> 00:25:19.714 but are you actually allowing teachers, 00:25:19.714 --> 00:25:21.814 if you say collaboration is important, 00:25:22.374 --> 00:25:24.354 if you say using data is important 00:25:24.354 --> 00:25:26.954 and knowing evidence of the impact you're having, 00:25:27.214 --> 00:25:30.574 do you have systems in place to allow those discussions to happen 00:25:30.574 --> 00:25:33.954 and have systems to collect that information? 00:25:34.874 --> 00:25:39.334 And that's our role as leaders of schools, to enable that. 00:25:41.474 --> 00:25:44.014 Now, the next one is a gentleman over there. 00:25:45.454 --> 00:25:46.894 My microphone is coming. 00:25:46.892 --> 00:26:16.872 Thank you. 00:26:16.892 --> 00:26:24.312 understand and to maximize one's potential. And what Tim, I believe, mentioned earlier, 00:26:24.512 --> 00:26:32.132 it's an unfortunate fact that right now in China that most parents would put their emphasis 00:26:32.132 --> 00:26:38.912 on what their A-level results are and therefore it helps the students get into a top university. 00:26:39.612 --> 00:26:44.072 But education, from what I believe, 00:26:44.252 --> 00:26:47.112 it's more than just sending them into top universities. 00:26:47.112 --> 00:26:51.492 It's about preparing them for 10 years, 20 years later. 00:26:52.372 --> 00:26:58.612 And moving from teachers and teaching techniques, 00:26:58.732 --> 00:27:01.772 I'd like to talk a little bit about the students in China. 00:27:02.552 --> 00:27:04.972 Because what I find, if I'm correct, 00:27:04.972 --> 00:27:12.832 that most of the population in the schools that are represented today are Chinese students, and they come from 00:27:12.831 --> 00:27:23.931 nation that has a very different structure than to the West. In the West, at the age of 12, you would be provided with, say, 15 subjects. 00:27:23.931 --> 00:27:37.031 You would study everything from mass physics, chemistry, arts, even photography sometimes. And you would pick up the subjects that you're interested in and the subjects that you want to pursue. 00:27:37.031 --> 00:27:46.951 And from 15 subjects, you go into 12, into 10, into 4, into 3, and eventually when you hit university, you would be left with one subject. 00:27:47.571 --> 00:27:52.051 But in the Chinese system, it's very different. It's almost the other way around. 00:27:52.671 --> 00:28:01.291 At the age of 12, 11, primary 6, we have three subjects. 00:28:02.091 --> 00:28:06.691 Chinese, literature, mathematics, and English language. 00:28:07.031 --> 00:28:12.651 By the time you get to junior one, you will be presented with seven subjects, 00:28:13.031 --> 00:28:14.811 and then eight subjects, nine subjects. 00:28:14.951 --> 00:28:17.491 You actually study more and more as you get older. 00:28:18.351 --> 00:28:25.731 So the problem is that students don't really have a, you know, what we think, sort of a speciality. 00:28:26.631 --> 00:28:28.811 They've studied the subjects because they have to. 00:28:28.831 --> 00:28:30.011 They have to pass exams. 00:28:30.171 --> 00:28:36.891 And even when they switch from the Chinese systems into, say, the A-level system, 00:28:37.031 --> 00:28:38.771 They still have the same mentality. 00:28:38.769 --> 00:28:51.769 Okay? And that's why at my school we try to, instead of trying to tell them you have to get high marks that we can get into universities, try and like the subject. 00:28:51.769 --> 00:28:59.769 The Duke of Edinburgh Award is a great program that the Britain offers. 00:28:59.769 --> 00:29:04.769 And what we've done, we've done our own version of that, called the Alexander Award, 00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:10.769 where we have 100 items where the students have to complete before they leave school. 00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:13.769 So it would have, for example, 00:29:13.769 --> 00:29:17.769 五个国家,十大名书,三文外语,两个月期,一本书. 00:29:17.769 --> 00:29:21.869 So every student has to travel at least five countries on their own. 00:29:22.169 --> 00:29:25.849 They have to read four Chinese famous novels. 00:29:26.269 --> 00:29:27.589 They have to have three languages. 00:29:27.829 --> 00:29:29.549 They have to have two musical instruments. 00:29:29.549 --> 00:29:33.529 And they must publish one book before they leave, 00:29:33.649 --> 00:29:38.849 whether it's a photography collection or whatever. 00:29:39.289 --> 00:29:43.429 So the reason we do that is because we're trying to make them, 00:29:44.269 --> 00:29:47.269 first of all, understand more about themselves, 00:29:47.769 --> 00:30:04.709 Okay, they're not learning economics just so one day they can make money, you know. They're learning economics because they understand exactly what economics is about at school level, at university level, and maybe what they do later in life. And that way, the students then... 00:30:04.708 --> 00:30:09.468 sort of pick up the subjects and study the subjects more effectively 00:30:09.468 --> 00:30:16.308 than just running what some newspapers may call factory systems in China. 00:30:16.548 --> 00:30:21.888 So instead of asking a question, I'm here just to share what I do at the school, 00:30:21.968 --> 00:30:24.768 and I hope that can help everyone at the same time. 00:30:25.048 --> 00:30:27.668 Thank you so much. That's really a very great interest. 00:30:27.908 --> 00:30:31.508 We're all struck by the winners of the Alexander Award. 00:30:31.508 --> 00:30:37.848 I think there's a broader question which I'd like to put to my colleagues here about motivation. 00:30:39.848 --> 00:30:47.088 If your kids are doing a multifaceted curriculum, some subjects they'll like better than others because they're human beings. 00:30:47.728 --> 00:30:52.528 And the reason they're doing it is not because they've chosen to do it, but because the system says they've got to do it. 00:30:52.528 --> 00:31:01.288 Are there lessons from research about the motivation of students in that kind of structured situation that helps? 00:31:02.068 --> 00:31:07.828 I should add perhaps that the description of the Western system that you made was perhaps a little oversimplified 00:31:07.828 --> 00:31:11.208 and it's a bit more varied now and generalized in many parts. 00:31:11.508 --> 00:31:15.868 But leaving that all aside, it's about this motivation where there's a structured system 00:31:15.868 --> 00:31:18.128 and everybody's got to go through it, whether they like it or not. 00:31:18.548 --> 00:31:22.148 Anything about motivating students to enjoy learning in that context? 00:31:22.528 --> 00:31:30.648 Yeah, it's a tricky one really. I mean I really like your story about the Duke of 00:31:30.646 --> 00:31:33.326 Edinburgh Awards and how you use those. 00:31:33.686 --> 00:31:35.826 And I don't know if you noticed on the, 00:31:35.906 --> 00:31:38.026 or I mightn't have put it up on the effect size chart 00:31:38.026 --> 00:31:42.926 around out-of-school programs and outdoor pursuit programs, 00:31:43.546 --> 00:31:45.826 which actually does have a really positive impact 00:31:45.826 --> 00:31:47.046 on student achievement. 00:31:47.566 --> 00:31:52.846 Because what is actually happening in some of those situations 00:31:52.846 --> 00:31:55.426 is you've actually got students in situations 00:31:55.426 --> 00:31:58.206 where somebody is really coaching them through something. 00:31:58.206 --> 00:32:03.426 So like, for example, if you are learning to abseil, you know, abseiling is going down a cliff. 00:32:03.966 --> 00:32:11.466 You know, you're actually putting in place a lot of that coaching that is really replicated in good teaching and learning, 00:32:11.806 --> 00:32:16.706 where you've got kids learning together, they're putting the harness on, they're checking it, they're checking each other's, 00:32:16.746 --> 00:32:22.586 all of those kinds of things which are replicated, I think, in what you're discussing around the Duke of Edinburgh Awards. 00:32:22.586 --> 00:32:33.846 So the other thing about that too is that often those kinds of opportunities that you're providing are the very reason why a lot of students might actually stay at school. 00:32:34.426 --> 00:32:42.426 Certainly in Western countries, they are motivating factors for students to stay at school and to continue right through to the end of school. 00:32:42.426 --> 00:32:56.586 And from a lot of the research, it looks very clearly at success in later life is not necessarily directly attributed, and this might be a Western thing, to success. 00:32:56.585 --> 00:33:01.805 your achievement at school, but to actually how many years you spent at school. 00:33:02.365 --> 00:33:06.945 So that's a really interesting statistic that we certainly look at in the countries that 00:33:06.945 --> 00:33:10.725 I work in, that difference between achievement and your years spent at school. 00:33:11.065 --> 00:33:15.945 And sometimes things like Duke of Edinburgh or some of those things, sports events, are 00:33:15.945 --> 00:33:18.265 motivating factors for students to stay at school. 00:33:19.985 --> 00:33:26.345 The thing around motivating students, I mean, it's always going to be easier to motivate 00:33:26.345 --> 00:33:30.285 students when they're really interested in something so the question really is how you 00:33:30.285 --> 00:33:34.205 get them interested and I guess the answer 00:33:34.205 --> 00:33:38.325 for me would be having a teacher who is really inspired and passionate and wanted 00:33:38.325 --> 00:33:42.005 you to share that passion that they actually have so 00:33:42.005 --> 00:33:45.845 what does that look like if I'm a truly inspired and passionate 00:33:45.845 --> 00:33:50.385 physics teacher or maths teacher and I am able to get 00:33:50.385 --> 00:33:54.445 that passion across to my students and want them to share that we possibly have 00:33:54.445 --> 00:33:58.685 a far greater chance of them being really engaging with it. 00:33:58.805 --> 00:34:01.865 But, you know, it's not an easy one. 00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:03.385 I'll come back. 00:34:03.485 --> 00:34:06.045 Just Leanne first, and then I'll come back to you. 00:34:06.045 --> 00:34:06.185 Sorry. 00:34:06.445 --> 00:34:06.705 Okay. 00:34:07.205 --> 00:34:09.405 So I think to motivate the students, 00:34:09.405 --> 00:34:11.965 one thing I want to raise is the textbook 00:34:11.965 --> 00:34:13.265 or the teaching materials. 00:34:13.445 --> 00:34:13.985 I'm not sure. 00:34:14.125 --> 00:34:17.325 So far, I haven't found any finding results 00:34:17.325 --> 00:34:19.265 from visible learning research. 00:34:19.985 --> 00:34:22.525 Is there something... 00:34:22.523 --> 00:34:26.623 about teaching materials or textbook? 00:34:28.003 --> 00:34:30.063 Because I think textbook or teaching materials 00:34:30.063 --> 00:34:33.683 are very important to motivate the learner. 00:34:34.063 --> 00:34:36.003 And I think in Asian contexts, 00:34:36.143 --> 00:34:38.543 in most of the country, we tend to use textbook. 00:34:38.723 --> 00:34:41.163 But in the Western world, for example, in the UK, 00:34:41.383 --> 00:34:43.243 I don't think all the teachers use textbook. 00:34:43.783 --> 00:34:46.243 They just use the teaching materials they selected. 00:34:46.883 --> 00:34:49.223 So if you are a maths teacher, 00:34:49.223 --> 00:34:52.023 so for example, you teach them some figures 00:34:52.023 --> 00:34:54.663 or for maybe another maths teacher, 00:34:54.823 --> 00:34:58.043 they would like to tell the students some stories 00:34:58.043 --> 00:35:01.743 about the scientists or the maths scientists. 00:35:01.943 --> 00:35:03.903 So it's different, I think, the effect. 00:35:05.843 --> 00:35:08.003 Anything about the textbook or teaching? 00:35:08.563 --> 00:35:13.463 Well, what our focus is on is really tailoring 00:35:13.463 --> 00:35:17.523 or having learning experience with students 00:35:17.523 --> 00:35:19.323 that are targeted at where their learning is at. 00:35:19.323 --> 00:35:21.963 So the notion of teaching everybody to a textbook 00:35:21.963 --> 00:35:26.503 is simply not something that invisible learning, we would say, is advisable. 00:35:26.903 --> 00:35:30.503 I mean, you can have a class of five, six, seven, eight-year-olds, 00:35:30.543 --> 00:35:34.463 and they're all learning at different levels and at different rates within that. 00:35:34.823 --> 00:35:38.523 So in actual fact, we talk a lot about differentiation of learning. 00:35:38.703 --> 00:35:42.103 Differentiation is a very big word in education for us, 00:35:42.443 --> 00:35:45.003 where you are actually making learning applicable, 00:35:45.303 --> 00:35:48.463 apply to where the students are at currently in their learning. 00:35:48.461 --> 00:35:52.021 remembering that we're wanting to get them all to make that progress 00:35:52.021 --> 00:35:55.541 and for some students who are below the benchmark currently 00:35:55.541 --> 00:35:59.181 below the standard we need to accelerate that learning 00:35:59.181 --> 00:36:01.421 so we need to put real emphasis on that 00:36:01.421 --> 00:36:05.241 so they can get the gains to get above that standard 00:36:05.241 --> 00:36:08.981 so teaching to a textbook would be something that 00:36:08.981 --> 00:36:11.221 certainly textbooks would be used 00:36:11.221 --> 00:36:16.081 but they'd be used as a tool in terms of your learning today 00:36:16.081 --> 00:36:22.001 in this context, your learning today might be quite different, and you're in a totally 00:36:22.001 --> 00:36:27.421 different place if you're using a textbook. But everybody using the same textbook? I can't 00:36:27.421 --> 00:36:34.521 see that in a class of 30, everybody is working at exactly the same pace. So as an example, 00:36:34.781 --> 00:36:41.441 and this will really scare you. Are you ready? Are you sure? I was in Stonefields recently, 00:36:41.441 --> 00:36:44.861 and their maths programme was on, was happening. 00:36:46.221 --> 00:36:48.981 And there were probably 60 students 00:36:48.981 --> 00:36:51.081 in this particular learning environment. 00:36:52.161 --> 00:36:55.661 Their maths programme in a particular strand of maths 00:36:55.661 --> 00:37:00.521 was on post-it notes on the glass doors. 00:37:01.541 --> 00:37:01.741 Right? 00:37:02.161 --> 00:37:05.821 So I knew that my learning objective at the moment 00:37:05.821 --> 00:37:08.681 was some aspect of number, let's say. 00:37:08.681 --> 00:37:14.401 Isabelle knew that her learning objective, she had actually already 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.920 got this particular one that I had done, her learning objective was quite different. 00:37:18.080 --> 00:37:19.980 So that goes up on a sticky note as well. 00:37:21.540 --> 00:37:25.060 Leanne's was actually quite different again, so hers is up on a sticky note and it's quite 00:37:25.060 --> 00:37:25.640 different too. 00:37:25.900 --> 00:37:31.000 The teacher knows exactly where those students are at in their learning, is tracking that 00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:36.700 through the programme that she or he is monitoring, but the students are controlling their learning. 00:37:36.980 --> 00:37:39.260 There is no textbook for everybody. 00:37:39.260 --> 00:37:46.260 I might take a group from that table who have all got a common learning outcome and do some explicit teaching around that. 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:57.140 But hey, if Isabel and Leanne can collaborate because Isabel knows and has mastered that learning objective, then she will be able to teach it to Leanne. 00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:03.000 And me as a teacher will actually then, in Stonefield School, sign off. 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:04.760 Leanne's got that now. 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.360 She's achieved that objective. 00:38:06.680 --> 00:38:08.120 She can move on to the next one. 00:38:08.120 --> 00:38:10.740 now that was a brave new world 00:38:10.740 --> 00:38:11.780 of teaching and learning 00:38:11.780 --> 00:38:15.220 that was working, that was exciting 00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:17.080 that had us 00:38:17.080 --> 00:38:18.980 just standing there with our mouths 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:20.360 open thinking 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:22.740 oh my goodness, how could this be possible 00:38:22.740 --> 00:38:25.000 but textbooks 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.400 no 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.700 I'm very much aware that 00:38:30.700 --> 00:38:32.960 there's a whole other debate about all of this 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:34.520 you should have seen your faces 00:38:34.520 --> 00:38:37.060 when Deb said what she said 00:38:37.060 --> 00:38:40.340 in the first sentence about textbooks because we're fully 00:38:40.338 --> 00:38:47.158 aware of the profound significance of approved textbooks and teacher guides in the traditions 00:38:47.158 --> 00:38:51.678 we're talking about. They're at the core of expectations of teachers and parents particularly. 00:38:52.378 --> 00:38:58.558 We're also aware of the controversies around them and also of the difference between that 00:38:58.558 --> 00:39:02.298 question, should there be approved textbooks, and the question of whether everybody should 00:39:02.298 --> 00:39:07.518 be at the same stage in them. That's a completely different question. So I realise, I think 00:39:07.518 --> 00:39:09.578 what Deb's done is asked us to go 00:39:09.578 --> 00:39:11.618 away and think again about some of our assumptions 00:39:11.618 --> 00:39:13.678 and all of that and it'd be very useful 00:39:13.678 --> 00:39:15.418 to see if there's any research evidence 00:39:15.418 --> 00:39:17.758 again it may not be in English that will help 00:39:17.758 --> 00:39:19.978 on that. Now if you want to come back very briefly 00:39:19.978 --> 00:39:21.678 but I want to have one more set of 00:39:21.678 --> 00:39:22.878 questions before we finish. 00:39:23.438 --> 00:39:26.018 So, did you 00:39:26.018 --> 00:39:27.458 want to come back? 00:39:28.018 --> 00:39:29.658 Yes, very briefly 00:39:29.658 --> 00:39:31.378 if you could wait for the microphone, thank you. 00:39:32.298 --> 00:39:33.598 Yes, indeed I've got 00:39:33.598 --> 00:39:35.578 actually a question following what I've said earlier. 00:39:35.578 --> 00:39:44.138 Due to the differences in education systems, Chinese tend to be much better at taking exams at the younger age. 00:39:44.298 --> 00:39:50.058 At the GCSEs, sometimes it takes four months to get through the mathematics programs and the A-levels. 00:39:50.258 --> 00:39:59.698 But when they get to university levels, they're competing with students that perhaps have been wanting to study geography for 15 years, 00:39:59.698 --> 00:40:06.278 whereas they've only picked geography because it might be the easiest subjects to get into that university. 00:40:06.277 --> 00:40:14.497 So there's a famous saying that in China it is difficult to get into university, but it's very easy to come out. 00:40:14.937 --> 00:40:17.817 But in the West, it's very difficult to get in. 00:40:18.437 --> 00:40:25.697 It's very easy to get in, but it's very difficult to come out because of perhaps the differences in the two education systems. 00:40:25.957 --> 00:40:31.317 So do you have a solution how to minimize that problem? 00:40:31.757 --> 00:40:33.057 That's my question. Thank you. 00:40:33.057 --> 00:40:34.997 Okay, there's a question. 00:40:35.177 --> 00:40:38.597 I think we should focus particularly on students who are at school in Asia 00:40:38.597 --> 00:40:43.197 and are going to progress to university in other cultures, 00:40:43.317 --> 00:40:45.797 whether it's in America or Australia or Europe or wherever. 00:40:46.517 --> 00:40:50.077 There's another set of questions about the expectations of Asian universities, 00:40:50.577 --> 00:40:55.057 which is another question again, and they have particular questions as well. 00:40:55.637 --> 00:40:57.497 Is there anything you wanted to add on that? 00:40:57.497 --> 00:40:58.137 Perhaps, Leanne? 00:40:59.757 --> 00:41:02.857 And then I'm going to have one more question and then we'll draw it to you. 00:41:02.857 --> 00:41:04.497 I think it's really a big question. 00:41:05.337 --> 00:41:07.797 And so I think from my point of view, 00:41:08.217 --> 00:41:11.877 so the curriculum of the high school, 00:41:12.537 --> 00:41:14.897 so I think we have to do something 00:41:14.897 --> 00:41:16.977 or make some changes for the curriculum. 00:41:17.177 --> 00:41:19.897 So from the findings, as we can see today, 00:41:20.277 --> 00:41:22.757 for example, the problem-solving skills, 00:41:23.217 --> 00:41:26.397 I think problem-solving skill is not emphasized 00:41:26.397 --> 00:41:29.477 in the high school curriculum. 00:41:30.077 --> 00:41:32.217 But problem-solving skill is very, 00:41:32.215 --> 00:41:38.915 important at university level so it's just an example I think we have to do 00:41:38.915 --> 00:41:45.675 something in the curriculum in terms of what to teach and how to teach but it's 00:41:45.675 --> 00:41:53.775 really big questions I think we've got time for one other question gentlemen 00:41:53.775 --> 00:41:58.715 there and then we'll begin to round up thank you 00:42:02.215 --> 00:42:17.155 I'm a bit surprised in the context of what the oldest things we're talking about here are from the West, studies from the West, metaphysics examples from the West. 00:42:17.155 --> 00:42:22.655 What does the panel think about the second language? 00:42:22.655 --> 00:42:37.515 I'm surprised that there hasn't been more statement about this, because all of our students here are living in a second language, and the level of English is at various levels. 00:42:37.515 --> 00:42:45.475 So the effect that that has, and how a British learning can help us in that. 00:42:45.475 --> 00:42:52.475 And that's another really good question and one that we're grappling with a lot and addressing 00:42:52.475 --> 00:42:58.155 quite effectively I hope in our work in Central Australia where we're working with a lot of 00:42:58.154 --> 00:43:01.534 English certainly is a second language and it's not spoken at home. 00:43:02.174 --> 00:43:07.934 So what are we doing in that context and what does the visible learning research actually say about it? 00:43:07.934 --> 00:43:12.134 There's quite a lot in the visible learning research about second language learning 00:43:12.134 --> 00:43:16.434 and about specific programs for second language learning. 00:43:17.034 --> 00:43:22.594 But in terms of thinking about the context in what we've been talking today, 00:43:22.594 --> 00:43:31.014 It's about some of those, it's exactly the same things apply in terms of good teaching and learning, 00:43:31.294 --> 00:43:35.054 and getting some of those messages across to students about them being learners. 00:43:35.574 --> 00:43:39.574 And I was communicating with a teacher from Central Australia just last night, 00:43:39.894 --> 00:43:46.834 for whom all 60 students at her school speak various dialects of the Aboriginal language, 00:43:47.234 --> 00:43:48.934 and have very limited English. 00:43:48.934 --> 00:43:55.754 and she said what she was trying to do was to get her students to be able to discuss the learning intentions 00:43:55.754 --> 00:44:01.914 and she was introducing them to that language of learning, the learning intentions and success criteria 00:44:01.914 --> 00:44:06.094 that I kind of touched on today and she said it was really challenging 00:44:06.094 --> 00:44:10.474 because the students didn't understand them and she was having real difficulty with it. 00:44:11.194 --> 00:44:16.114 So I put it to her last week when we were having an ongoing kind of conversation 00:44:16.114 --> 00:44:24.094 that what she needs to do, what she should try, is to really put those learning intentions together with 00:44:24.092 --> 00:44:29.712 the students. So this is what we are wanting to do. This is what it's all about. In language 00:44:29.712 --> 00:44:34.312 that they can understand, in ways that they can understand it, and then getting them to 00:44:34.312 --> 00:44:38.252 actually develop the learning intentions and getting them to develop what that success 00:44:38.252 --> 00:44:43.212 looks like. So then it's in a context and a language that they understand, and then 00:44:43.212 --> 00:44:47.712 giving them far more ownership of it. And it was one of those light bulb moments for 00:44:47.712 --> 00:44:52.992 her, if you like. She was trying to do it for them, but by involving them in that process, 00:44:52.992 --> 00:44:56.952 She has had far greater success and ownership of that. 00:44:57.732 --> 00:45:02.812 So it's doing the same things, but it's thinking about how you do them differently. 00:45:03.212 --> 00:45:06.232 At Stonefields, for example, they have a lot of visual clues. 00:45:06.692 --> 00:45:11.872 So they have a lot of visual stuff for the learners, particularly younger learners, 00:45:11.972 --> 00:45:14.592 but they've got second English language learners there too. 00:45:15.512 --> 00:45:22.332 And also some of the signs and the symbols that they're using to actually articulate what learning looks like. 00:45:22.332 --> 00:45:30.372 So there are definitely strategies and ways you can work through it in terms of giving those students those learning strategies as well. 00:45:31.332 --> 00:45:36.792 To understand second language learning more, really you'd have to dive into some of the research in the book. 00:45:37.472 --> 00:45:41.432 And that's probably for the purposes of today where I might just have to leave that one. 00:45:41.832 --> 00:45:44.092 But, you know, the same applies, I believe. 00:45:44.692 --> 00:45:45.832 I'm sure you'll have something to say. 00:45:46.072 --> 00:45:47.472 Yeah, do you want? This is the last. 00:45:48.612 --> 00:45:49.852 Is there anything else you'd like to add? 00:45:49.852 --> 00:45:50.032 No. 00:45:50.031 --> 00:45:55.511 I would just say that the previous seminar in this series 00:45:55.511 --> 00:45:59.971 was about research, evidence about a bilingual education, 00:46:00.231 --> 00:46:04.211 including the cognitive effects of studying more than one language, 00:46:04.211 --> 00:46:07.311 and also what research there is about the impact on achievement 00:46:07.311 --> 00:46:10.211 in subjects other than either of the languages. 00:46:10.811 --> 00:46:13.411 So, for example, if somebody is doing maths in English 00:46:13.411 --> 00:46:15.511 and their mother tongue is something else, 00:46:15.871 --> 00:46:17.651 do they do better or worse in maths? 00:46:17.651 --> 00:46:20.191 and to cut a long story short 00:46:20.191 --> 00:46:22.911 the research is not definitive either way 00:46:22.911 --> 00:46:25.611 and there were some interesting examples from Hong Kong 00:46:25.611 --> 00:46:27.511 where there were some questions raised 00:46:27.511 --> 00:46:31.211 although the general drift is that there is no evidence of harm 00:46:31.211 --> 00:46:35.191 but there was some questions raised by evidence from Hong Kong 00:46:35.191 --> 00:46:36.731 so it's an open issue 00:46:36.731 --> 00:46:41.231 Dr Peter Mahisto has written for Cambridge on this subject 00:46:41.231 --> 00:46:45.031 and the stuff on the Cambridge Assessment Singapore website on that 00:46:45.031 --> 00:46:51.071 But again, I think there's also a bit of a disclaimer in the first chapter of visible learning 00:46:51.071 --> 00:46:58.391 that it's not directly addressing some of the effects of doing some of these things in another language, 00:46:58.491 --> 00:47:01.051 but it comes into the broader field. 00:47:15.031 --> 00:47:45.011 Thank you.