WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.000 Thank you. Jeff Holden from City and Guilds. 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:18.000 One of the key, if possibly not the key, drivers of school behaviour is, of course, the accountability measures that they're subject to and are made public. 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:29.000 One of the strong conclusions from the Wolf Report was that having a single accountability measure doesn't work and it just drives poor behaviour. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:34.340 behavior so I'd be very interested in the panel's views on what ranges of 00:00:34.340 --> 00:00:41.620 different accountability measures will actually help us move towards a much 00:00:41.620 --> 00:00:48.500 better system indeed if you had tracks would you not need several different 00:00:48.500 --> 00:00:54.360 kinds and would they be equivalent anybody else anybody else like to pick 00:00:54.360 --> 00:00:56.240 up that point or one of the points we've had before? 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:58.000 In the front. 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:03.820 Ron McClone, Cambridge Assessment, retired, and also OCR. 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:11.420 I'd really like to say that we've had a long debate with a lot of different views, and 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:13.880 drawing it all together is going to be mighty difficult. 00:01:15.100 --> 00:01:23.120 I'm very impressed and hopeful that OCR's contribution is going to go in the right direction. 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.880 Is 14 the new 16? Yo. 00:01:28.300 --> 00:01:40.132 It is and it isn It is in the sense that practicality is already taking it that way as Mark has already said That is where young people are seeing themselves being different 00:01:40.572 --> 00:01:45.712 16 was only arbitrary, may I remind everybody, in the first place, as was 15. 00:01:46.132 --> 00:01:51.572 15 went to 16. 16, of course, is going to 18. Where was 14? 00:01:51.972 --> 00:01:56.112 The one thing I do worry about, and I don't know whether anybody has any solution to this, 00:01:56.112 --> 00:02:00.832 is when will 14 become the arbitrary number that we wished we hadn't got? 00:02:06.932 --> 00:02:09.292 I'm a little confused on the research here. 00:02:09.352 --> 00:02:11.512 We've had a couple of points on this. 00:02:12.172 --> 00:02:16.632 I think it was Ken that said that research indicates 00:02:16.632 --> 00:02:22.292 that students are placed on a track almost from birth. 00:02:22.292 --> 00:02:32.112 and Graham has mentioned that students at 14 probably know what they're going to do I wonder 00:02:32.112 --> 00:02:36.172 whether research says students know what they're going to do or they've arrived at this point at 00:02:36.172 --> 00:02:41.172 which they are more or less constrained about what they're going to do I didn't know what I wanted to 00:02:41.172 --> 00:02:46.032 do at the age 24 so I'm not quite sure if I know any 14 year olds who have even the faintest idea 00:02:46.032 --> 00:02:47.792 of what sector they'd like to be in. 00:02:48.372 --> 00:02:51.632 So I'm just a little concerned. 00:02:51.632 --> 00:02:55.012 Has anybody got any information on in that sort of field 00:02:55.012 --> 00:02:56.372 that could help us, sir? 00:02:59.912 --> 00:03:01.612 Geoff Hayward, University of Leeds. 00:03:03.552 --> 00:03:04.352 Three points. 00:03:04.752 --> 00:03:17.424 First please stop using the language of ability when you actually mean social disadvantage Because other countries achieve much much higher rates of academic attainment than we do 00:03:18.424 --> 00:03:22.144 And I don't believe their populations are genetically any different to us. 00:03:22.744 --> 00:03:26.664 We have a fundamental problem of expectation of our young people. 00:03:26.664 --> 00:03:35.404 Second, the progenitors of school failure start at birth. 00:03:36.444 --> 00:03:39.724 The best person probably to intervene is the midwife. 00:03:40.864 --> 00:03:46.464 Leaving it till 14 to remedy educational failure is way too late. 00:03:46.664 --> 00:03:51.664 The Millennium Cohort Study already shows there's a significant gap at age 2 00:03:51.664 --> 00:03:55.464 between young people from disadvantaged backgrounds 00:03:55.464 --> 00:03:57.824 and those from more advantaged backgrounds. 00:03:59.024 --> 00:04:04.244 So that's where my comments about the pathways are set, set at birth. 00:04:05.064 --> 00:04:10.864 And thirdly, you've got to get real about the labour market. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:04:16.164 You've got to understand that you can pump out qualified young people 00:04:16.164 --> 00:04:19.364 from our education system into our labour market, 00:04:19.364 --> 00:04:25.604 and it will not make one iota of difference to how the labour market works. 00:04:26.584 --> 00:04:29.364 You will still have enormous numbers of young people. 00:04:29.444 --> 00:04:31.704 Just read the TUC report that came out yesterday. 00:04:32.164 --> 00:04:33.984 You'll have enormous numbers of young people 00:04:33.984 --> 00:04:37.424 who are employed in low-paid jobs 00:04:37.424 --> 00:04:52.695 because employers can get away with paying low wages Does anybody else like to pick that up or any any of the other points we had before I just 00:04:52.695 --> 00:05:00.336 looking at the the data this is it's a little bit of democracy at work here the outside online we 00:05:00.336 --> 00:05:08.276 now have over a thousand people watching online incidentally online they have not run with how 00:05:08.276 --> 00:05:16.135 you have in the audience here today in terms of the questions we asked externally set exams 00:05:16.135 --> 00:05:22.495 at 16 are the most reliable method of validating a student is ready to go on to study subjects was 00:05:22.495 --> 00:05:29.495 a resounding disagree externally and resounding agree internally so people watching online don't 00:05:29.495 --> 00:05:38.036 agree with that interesting though that online age 14 is a better starting point for students 00:05:38.036 --> 00:05:43.276 to take courses leading in different directions a stunning and 99% of people 00:05:43.276 --> 00:05:49.195 online either agree or strongly agree so clearly there are a large number of 00:05:49.195 --> 00:05:52.656 people out there and that will be a mixture I suspect of educate 00:05:52.656 --> 00:05:56.276 educationalists you can't make it today and other people that are interested in 00:05:56.276 --> 00:06:03.596 this however where it starts getting very different again is if a national 00:06:03.596 --> 00:06:09.836 examination was to be introduced at age 14 what would its primary purpose be you'll recall that 00:06:09.836 --> 00:06:14.836 40% of you said no exam and then the others were split relatively equally between progress check 00:06:14.836 --> 00:06:20.316 subject knowledge and selection for routes externally 67% think they should 00:06:20.413 --> 00:06:25.773 be no exam at 14 and if there is to be one the remainder of them think it should be a progress 00:06:25.773 --> 00:06:32.293 check on the upside an educational system that allows students to opt for different routes 00:06:32.293 --> 00:06:38.213 63% of you thought it could work and 20% of you thought it probably wouldn't 00:06:39.033 --> 00:06:44.553 externally 75% of them think it could work so they obviously have more faith in our ability 00:06:44.553 --> 00:06:48.553 to put together a system, and only 25% said probably not. 00:06:50.273 --> 00:06:54.192 So that's a little bit more information that we've got there. 00:06:54.353 --> 00:06:57.192 Would anybody like to take us in a slightly different direction 00:06:57.192 --> 00:06:59.572 or to tackle something we've already done? Tim? 00:07:00.093 --> 00:07:01.192 Yeah, can I go back a bit? 00:07:01.192 --> 00:07:06.192 In terms of your point about the seeming contradiction between... 00:07:06.192 --> 00:07:09.473 Yes, sorry, wait, yes, yes. 00:07:10.072 --> 00:07:11.853 Elementary. Thanks very much indeed. 00:07:11.953 --> 00:07:13.833 And stand up so you can have my camera. Thank you. 00:07:14.553 --> 00:07:17.353 Thank you, Chair. 00:07:17.853 --> 00:07:20.773 Right, to return to your question about the seeming contradictions in the research, 00:07:20.873 --> 00:07:22.633 there's a lot of work that's been done with young people, 00:07:22.753 --> 00:07:23.613 talking to them directly, 00:07:24.453 --> 00:07:27.053 and also looking at destinations in terms of the labour market 00:07:27.053 --> 00:07:28.933 and looking at transnational comparisons. 00:07:30.213 --> 00:07:33.333 Now, it seems as if the research points in different directions, 00:07:33.333 --> 00:07:34.173 but it doesn't. 00:07:35.053 --> 00:07:38.093 By 14, identity formation in young people is very strong. 00:07:38.733 --> 00:07:42.333 They do have an idea about who they are and where they want to go. 00:07:42.333 --> 00:07:44.973 doesn't mean they're right in that 00:07:44.973 --> 00:07:48.192 okay but they have a strong notion of it 00:07:48.192 --> 00:07:59.584 the best systems capitalise on that by actually linking that identity formation into motivation and get them on programmes that they think are going to give them good things 00:08:00.544 --> 00:08:04.024 And by dint of good design in those systems, those systems do. 00:08:04.884 --> 00:08:08.244 They still have a very strong diet of high-quality mathematics, 00:08:09.284 --> 00:08:13.564 focus on literacy, science, Hillary, but contextualised. 00:08:13.964 --> 00:08:18.804 It's presented in a form which they think will be necessary for them, 00:08:18.804 --> 00:08:19.704 so they learn it. 00:08:20.264 --> 00:08:21.244 And the OECD says, 00:08:21.464 --> 00:08:23.184 if you take freedom away from people 00:08:23.184 --> 00:08:24.804 and have them on education programs, 00:08:25.204 --> 00:08:27.044 for which the state is spending a great deal of money, 00:08:27.744 --> 00:08:29.184 it's a good idea having them learning 00:08:29.184 --> 00:08:31.544 as much as possible during that time. 00:08:32.324 --> 00:08:33.204 So that's very prudent. 00:08:33.304 --> 00:08:34.284 That's what happens in the Netherlands, 00:08:34.444 --> 00:08:36.424 and I referred to it in my presentation. 00:08:37.324 --> 00:08:40.044 Now, so you can now see there's not a contradiction. 00:08:40.944 --> 00:08:41.044 Okay. 00:08:41.884 --> 00:08:43.664 Now, to go back to the other point 00:08:43.664 --> 00:08:46.024 that one of the speakers made about general skills, 00:08:46.964 --> 00:08:48.244 if we look at Germany, 00:08:48.804 --> 00:08:59.264 Okay, people make choices, they go into the vocational route, they choose one of about 360 occupations, which looks unbelievably narrow from the outside. 00:09:00.164 --> 00:09:14.604 But because they're on long duration training, strong psychological contract with the employer, immersion in work, learning all sorts of skills of employability and socialization into the labor force and into the workplace, good behaviors as it were. 00:09:14.604 --> 00:09:19.604 A large proportion of them, typically in the past it's been about 40%, 00:09:19.604 --> 00:09:36.296 immediately gain employment at a high level in an occupation other than the one for which they been trained So they on a specific route at a very early age 16 It looks incredibly narrow 00:09:37.216 --> 00:09:39.436 It looks dysfunctional because they've made a choice 00:09:39.436 --> 00:09:43.136 to train in an area for which there may not be jobs in the economy 00:09:43.136 --> 00:09:45.156 at the time in which they graduate. 00:09:46.056 --> 00:09:48.916 But because of the quality of the learning and its duration, 00:09:49.416 --> 00:09:50.716 they are immensely flexible. 00:09:50.716 --> 00:09:58.116 they can then capitalise on the genuine opportunities 00:09:58.116 --> 00:10:01.176 which are there in the labour market when they graduate. 00:10:02.396 --> 00:10:05.956 Now, that's the kind of sophistication in thinking 00:10:05.956 --> 00:10:09.396 in terms of systems that we actually need to formulate good policy 00:10:09.396 --> 00:10:14.236 to get beyond the allusions to the realities of deep structures 00:10:14.236 --> 00:10:16.956 which provide high quality learning and genuine flexibility. 00:10:16.956 --> 00:10:27.696 if I ask ask the audience then if we then look at what we see Gautier said in his paper and points 00:10:27.696 --> 00:10:37.956 out that systems are grown historically and built almost accidentally and that it is often a bad 00:10:37.956 --> 00:10:44.736 move to try and in either imply this system or give it a system in what sense can we look at 00:10:44.736 --> 00:10:46.136 Germany, can we look at Holland? 00:10:46.136 --> 00:10:48.976 I think Hillary's probably got something to say at this point. 00:10:48.976 --> 00:10:50.216 And look at these places. 00:10:50.216 --> 00:10:53.036 Holland is very, very small, very homogenous. 00:10:53.036 --> 00:10:54.716 Germany is very large, yes, equivalent, 00:10:54.716 --> 00:10:57.356 but it's built on a whole different system, 00:10:57.356 --> 00:11:11.828 almost reconstructed in 45 to 50 on radically different lines than came before To what extent can we look at these people And we just talked about bloody Finland as it were Should we all be going to Holland 00:11:12.928 --> 00:11:14.728 What can we actually draw, 00:11:14.928 --> 00:11:17.828 even from societies that are in the same cultural... 00:11:18.388 --> 00:11:21.108 I'm not even going to think about what we can draw from the Far East. 00:11:21.988 --> 00:11:24.048 What can we draw from these societies 00:11:24.048 --> 00:11:26.228 that is actually going to make any sense whatsoever 00:11:26.228 --> 00:11:31.388 in the particular cultural and historical growth of private schools, 00:11:31.688 --> 00:11:33.628 still got bits of grammar schools, 00:11:34.648 --> 00:11:38.808 now we've got UTCs in a quite heterogeneous system. 00:11:40.308 --> 00:11:41.648 Hilary, would you like to... 00:11:41.648 --> 00:11:44.248 You've looked into this for a very long time. 00:11:44.768 --> 00:11:46.588 What can we pull? Can we pull anything? 00:11:47.688 --> 00:11:53.548 I think we can pull out a very important lesson 00:11:53.548 --> 00:11:56.508 from looking at other countries, 00:11:56.788 --> 00:11:58.988 not just European countries, 00:11:59.088 --> 00:12:01.948 which we might claim have a very different tradition 00:12:01.948 --> 00:12:05.388 and culture from our own, 00:12:05.388 --> 00:12:09.388 but by looking also at English-speaking countries 00:12:09.948 --> 00:12:13.268 like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, 00:12:13.748 --> 00:12:17.168 and we can see that human potential 00:12:17.168 --> 00:12:20.708 is much, much better developed and promoted, 00:12:21.248 --> 00:12:23.508 the potential of their young people 00:12:23.508 --> 00:12:30.648 is being developed to a much higher level than we are managing to do with our young people. 00:12:30.648 --> 00:12:40.728 And there is absolutely no reason why we should not find a way of achieving the same level, perhaps even a better level. 00:12:40.825 --> 00:12:49.005 level than those countries have achieved. And I think that is the thought that needs 00:12:49.005 --> 00:12:56.145 to motivate everything we do. As soon as you start thinking about what do we do about UTCs, 00:12:56.205 --> 00:13:03.185 what do we do about grammar schools, the mind cannot cope anymore. But if you hold on to 00:13:03.185 --> 00:13:10.185 the fact that we just must find a way of getting the best out of all our young people, and 00:13:10.185 --> 00:13:17.905 And that means aiming to do what other countries do, to have them in education or in apprenticeship 00:13:17.905 --> 00:13:28.105 or in education with workplace experience, probably until the age of 18 or even 19 and 00:13:28.105 --> 00:13:35.885 getting to a level where they are really competent in mathematics in their own language and where 00:13:35.885 --> 00:13:47.085 they have a really useful level of occupational skill. That should be our aim. And everything 00:13:47.085 --> 00:13:55.985 we learn about other countries shows us that it is possible. And we have known this for 00:13:55.985 --> 00:14:04.885 20 years or more. But somehow we have lacked the will to achieve it. And as I see it, I 00:14:04.885 --> 00:14:06.645 I think the will is there now. 00:14:06.765 --> 00:14:09.725 I think the necessity of achieving it is there, 00:14:10.125 --> 00:14:21.837 and the will is there and I think we can do it But somebody like Graham I going to put words in your mouth somebody like Graham will then turn around and say fine and good 00:14:22.557 --> 00:14:25.957 possibly the problem in the past is we've picked the wrong bits, 00:14:26.837 --> 00:14:30.257 and we've gone overseas, we've looked at this country and that country, 00:14:30.337 --> 00:14:32.017 and we've said, that seems to be the bit that works. 00:14:32.297 --> 00:14:36.477 We've incorporated it into the UK, and it hasn't delivered that broad vision. 00:14:36.657 --> 00:14:40.917 So Graham is going to say to you, which, OK, he's going to New Zealand, 00:14:40.937 --> 00:14:47.237 or Canada as it may be, which bits should he be looking at in Canada that work, that would work here, 00:14:47.497 --> 00:14:49.537 that he should be looking at with particular emphasis? 00:14:50.037 --> 00:14:53.357 The one place we shouldn't look at is the place we always go to. 00:14:54.097 --> 00:14:54.577 Finland? 00:14:55.097 --> 00:14:56.357 No, the United States. 00:14:57.037 --> 00:15:03.877 Every innovation in our education system over the last ten years has come from the United States. 00:15:04.617 --> 00:15:07.937 Beacon schools, academies, all these things. 00:15:07.937 --> 00:15:13.237 we look at a country which has a dreadful record of developing its young people. 00:15:14.337 --> 00:15:18.397 And we ignore, or we have ignored very largely, 00:15:19.177 --> 00:15:22.757 the countries of Europe which are so close to us. 00:15:23.597 --> 00:15:30.957 And I think we have begun to take note of what is happening in Australia and New Zealand. 00:15:30.957 --> 00:15:35.597 but yes, they are countries which have tracked systems 00:15:35.597 --> 00:15:38.197 from age 16 onwards. 00:15:38.197 --> 00:15:43.197 They have a lot of high quality vocational colleges 00:15:43.197 --> 00:15:45.677 and vocational education. 00:15:45.677 --> 00:15:59.669 They have twice Australia has twice as many apprentices as we do taking into account their population There a great deal we can learn but we must have the will 00:15:59.669 --> 00:16:07.689 to put it into practice, take difficult decisions, offend interest groups, forget 00:16:07.689 --> 00:16:14.849 about stakeholders, just do what's right for our young people. 00:16:14.849 --> 00:16:16.569 There you are, Graham. 00:16:17.789 --> 00:16:19.589 How to lose an election very quickly. 00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:24.849 Worth coming back on that. 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:26.029 I mean, the government, 00:16:26.689 --> 00:16:31.109 and your remarks just now further compounded 00:16:31.109 --> 00:16:34.549 the general trend that my speech formed part 00:16:34.549 --> 00:16:36.769 of suggesting that everything is bad in what we're doing. 00:16:36.869 --> 00:16:39.609 And I think there's an awful lot of good in what we're doing. 00:16:39.609 --> 00:16:40.609 And we mustn't... 00:16:40.609 --> 00:16:43.369 A great danger of doing yourself down 00:16:43.369 --> 00:16:47.609 is to ignore the strength of much of our system. 00:16:48.489 --> 00:16:51.049 But there is recognition in government, 00:16:51.149 --> 00:16:52.229 and it was true of the last government, 00:16:52.369 --> 00:16:53.629 but also this one on apprenticeships. 00:16:53.629 --> 00:16:59.729 And John Hayes is bringing poetry to the prose of apprenticeships 00:16:59.729 --> 00:17:02.769 and is absolutely dedicated to promoting that. 00:17:02.829 --> 00:17:04.949 And I think we will see many more apprentices. 00:17:05.489 --> 00:17:09.109 If I may, Bennett, just come back from Jeff's initial point. 00:17:09.929 --> 00:17:11.389 I'm absolutely right. 00:17:11.389 --> 00:17:14.429 we need a system of assessment and accountability 00:17:14.429 --> 00:17:18.229 that gives equal weight to the progress of every young person. 00:17:18.769 --> 00:17:51.141 I pushing to try and get Andy Burnham and to get both sides on the house because I think that is acceptable to everybody we need an assessment and accountability that gives equal weight to the progress of every child or young person it it much more difficult to do but it does mean that you can raise questions about the English baccalaureate as one more distorting measure if that becomes the be all and end all what you do need is much more information the government I think has taken on board I think it slightly recoiled from some of the responses to the early steps and is looking at publishing much more information 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:58.081 and I hope people in this room can form part of providing that series of performance measures. 00:17:58.241 --> 00:18:00.620 It's just like in someone at the Select Committee once said, 00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:02.981 it's like in business, if you make sales, the be-all and end-all, 00:18:03.341 --> 00:18:06.620 and you tell everyone in the company it's all about sales because your sales are a bit low, 00:18:07.061 --> 00:18:10.761 it will lead to loss of margin, loss of quality, loss of focus. 00:18:10.761 --> 00:18:15.601 You have to have a mixed score, and we need to have that across our system, 00:18:15.601 --> 00:18:20.821 and that's the danger of one great measure, 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:22.301 distorting the rest of the system. 00:18:22.441 --> 00:18:24.620 We must minimise the distortions within the system. 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.821 As to what that looks like, I know that's much more difficult, 00:18:27.921 --> 00:18:29.380 but I think we need much more information 00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:32.741 and try to not only get the assessment right, 00:18:32.981 --> 00:18:36.400 but understand the reality of the accountability systems. 00:18:36.641 --> 00:18:39.861 What really drives a head or head of department 00:18:39.861 --> 00:18:41.861 in the real world in an institution? 00:18:42.021 --> 00:18:43.081 Not my theory of it, 00:18:43.081 --> 00:18:45.541 either an assumption that they're automatically a good person 00:18:45.541 --> 00:18:48.921 or my suspicious assumption that I need to check up on them all the time. 00:18:48.921 --> 00:18:51.421 Treat them as a professional, but don't be naive 00:18:51.421 --> 00:18:53.921 as to the drivers that will affect their behaviour. 00:18:53.921 --> 00:18:55.421 We've already seen that with the baccalaureate. 00:18:55.421 --> 00:18:57.921 I've had a head in front of the committee saying that they do... 00:18:57.921 --> 00:19:01.141 He said, and this is just one of many examples, I wouldn't want to stick it up, 00:19:01.238 --> 00:19:04.838 to implementise him, but he said they do an excellent half GCSE, 00:19:04.918 --> 00:19:07.038 which I didn't even know existed, that's my ignorance, 00:19:07.118 --> 00:19:08.638 in history and geography. 00:19:08.718 --> 00:19:10.918 And they had a proven record of people going on to do A levels 00:19:10.978 --> 00:19:13.278 in history and geography and doing really well. 00:19:13.358 --> 00:19:15.378 They were scoring zero, of course, because they don't